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True story of what positive compensation

I have a rifle that compensates at 600 yards. A lot.
My first competition rifle, a full house M1A, built by TLC Gunworks. I shot this rifle continuously and extensively, from 1995, until the early oughts. Got my XTC, and LR Master cards with it.
With three different barrels, all loads would land in the 10 ring at 600 yards, with the same zero. From 155 to 190 grains. Factory & Handloads. Some higher, some lower, all in the 10 ring. This was not true at other distances, or with other M1A’s. This was not built into the rifle intentionally, nor are it’s reasons understood.
I still have the rifle, and if I come up 21 minutes from the bottom, and shoot some reasonable .308 load, with a good wind call, it will land in the 10 ring.
 
I have a rifle that compensates at 600 yards. A lot. My first competition rifle, a full house M1A,
One of the military teams testing M14NM rifles in an accuracy cradle observed positive compensation at 600 yards with LC match ammo as well as their handloads. Some engineer at their command figured it was due to the gas port about mid point in the barrel bowing the barrel up at that point made the muzzle axis point down just the right amount among other vertical axes whipping to do that.
 
Some time ago, I had a conversation with a fellow who had come up with an adjustment to vary stock stiffness. It was set up so that it could be field adjusted by the operator, without tools. It even had an adjustment scale marked in yards.
LOL, I built one of those..... I took a Rem700 wood stock, added flocked-up 'glas to make it the shape I wanted and to enclose my "tuning tubes", installed an old three-string gearhead tuner plate with butterbean knobs, ran G-strings thru and wrapped the entire ensemble in CF.
 
Best stock stiffening thing I've seen was made by John "Bo" Clerke back in the 1960's. A ~2.5" thick aluminum slab had the side profile of a PJ Wright match rifle stock marked on it then cut out. The Win 70 receiver and barrel area was milled out including that for the box magazine. The aluminum forward and back from the receiver was thinned to about 5/8ths to 3/4ths inch thick. Trigger cutout and screw holes put in. Walnut slabs screwed to the sides, shaped and finished then adjustable butt plate installed. Everything fit to near zero clearance. No epoxy bedding required.

Stiffest rifle stock I've ever seen.

With the CNC metal shaping machines today, an all aluminum stock could be made. Cutouts could be made to reduce weight yet minimize flexing
 
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My mcmillan f class stock looks like its a diving board thru the scope after a shot. It shoots way better than the stiffer stocks on the exact same barreled action. Its always intriguing to me to watch all the “positive compensation” conversations. Really does seperate wheat from chaff o_O
 
My mcmillan f class stock looks like its a diving board thru the scope after a shot. It shoots way better than the stiffer stocks on the exact same barreled action. Its always intriguing to me to watch all the “positive compensation” conversations. Really does separate wheat from chaff o_O
After all the wheat and chaff have fell to the ground, it's obvious to some observers that all the rifle parts contribute to compensation. Both positive and negative.

How the rifle's held can also effect horizontal shot dispersion on target. That's probably worth another thread.
 
So what’s the debate or objections that led to the deleted thread? I read the links Bart posted and didn’t see a debatable topic?

The 1901 Royal Society of London math is above my level.
 
So what’s the debate or objections that led to the deleted thread? I read the links Bart posted and didn’t see a debatable topic?

The 1901 Royal Society of London math is above my level.


The existence and impact of barrel vibration is not debatable. It has been measured and proven and analyzed many times by many smart people over the last 100+ years. When people get all worked up, it is gernerally due to misunderstood context, a lack of appreciation for the full complexity of the phenomenon, or just plain rock headedness. It’s 100% a thing, though, and can be manipulated to gain signicant beneficial results. How to do that is tricky, and requires knowledge and experimentation.

It doesn’t help that there are some amateur engineers, particularly in the rimfire world, that promote a total fiction of how it works. Just plain, totally, irrecoverably wrong - based on feelings and not science. That confuses a lot of folks.
 
It doesn’t help that there are some amateur engineers, particularly in the rimfire world, that promote a total fiction of how it works. Just plain, totally, irrecoverably wrong - based on feelings and not science.
From Kolbe's link I posted regarding 22 rimfire tests:

The influential American rimfire gunsmith Bill Calfee, in an article written for Precision Shooting Magazine ("I'm Feeling Those Good Vibrations AGAIN!" Vol. 52, No. 11, March 2005) presented a rather novel view on how barrels vibrate, and also expressed his belief that for best accuracy, barrels should be tuned so that the muzzle is "stopped" and there is no change in muzzle angle, or position, as the bullet is launched. It should be noted that Calfee's theories have absolutely no basis in fact and are mathematically untenable. But that does not stop it being the most quoted work in the popular press on barrel vibrations and the tuning of barrels.

Here's Calfee's article. Read for entertainment only.

http://www.ozfclass.com/articles/1/psm_2005_03.html
 
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Bill Calfee?

From Kolbe's link I posted regarding 22 rimfire tests:

The influential American rimfire gunsmith Bill Calfee, in an article written for Precision Shooting Magazine ("I'm Feeling Those Good Vibrations AGAIN!" Vol. 52, No. 11, March 2005) presented a rather novel view on how barrels vibrate, and also expressed his belief that for best accuracy, barrels should be tuned so that the muzzle is "stopped" and there is no change in muzzle angle, or position, as the bullet is launched. It should be noted that Calfee's theories have absolutely no basis in fact and are mathematically untenable. But that does not stop it being the most quoted work in the popular press on barrel vibrations and the tuning of barrels
Calfee preaches that once a gun is tuned, it's always in tune. Doesn't matter if it's 0° or 110° and that positive compensation is just plain non- existent. He laughs at the notion as well as anyone that moves a tuner. It matters not that temperature directly affects powder and velocity...to him., the world's greatest gunsmith and self proclaimed tuner inventor. Sadly, he has a following that believe anything he says, seemingly.
 
My mcmillan f class stock looks like its a diving board thru the scope after a shot. It shoots way better than the stiffer stocks on the exact same barreled action. Its always intriguing to me to watch all the “positive compensation” conversations. Really does seperate wheat from chaff o_O

I have a friend, a retired engineer, who has designed and built three or four very innovative 308 Win FTR rifles on a Barnard P action with features such as inbuilt forend attachment points / hinges for the bipod legs making them an integral part of the stock and reducing bipod weight significantly.

One member of the series had a 34-inch F-Class profile barrel and massively long stock with a very thin forend, the stock home-built out of timber recovered from an ancient scrap wardrobe. Standing off to one side when he fired the piece - 185 Hybrids at impressive MVs - you'd see both barrel and stock flex in a most dramatic fashion. Most entertaining and it'd draw small crowds on the firing points.

I'd love to say it shot a storm and showed the benefits of using a radical lightweight stock design and putting all the weight into the barrel. But, sadly he never could get it to perform consistently and scrapped this particular concept after a couple of frustrating seasons.
 
From Kolbe's link I posted regarding 22 rimfire tests:

The influential American rimfire gunsmith Bill Calfee, in an article written for Precision Shooting Magazine ("I'm Feeling Those Good Vibrations AGAIN!" Vol. 52, No. 11, March 2005) presented a rather novel view on how barrels vibrate, and also expressed his belief that for best accuracy, barrels should be tuned so that the muzzle is "stopped" and there is no change in muzzle angle, or position, as the bullet is launched. It should be noted that Calfee's theories have absolutely no basis in fact and are mathematically untenable. But that does not stop it being the most quoted work in the popular press on barrel vibrations and the tuning of barrels.

Here's Calfee's article

http://www.ozfclass.com/articles/1/psm_2005_03.html
I think it’s improtant to re-emphasize this for those who dont have the background or aren’t interested in digging into it:

Calfee is unequivocally, undebatably, completely incorrect. He’s flat out wrong and if you listen to what he says on this, you’re just going to waste your time. Don’t even read the article. It’s that wrong. This is not a matter of opinion.
 
About Calfee, if he had simply said that when I do this, this is what happens, and left off all of the guesses about the mechanism that caused the effect, he would have not been nearly as successful at self promotion. All of that controversy was great advertising. It was like people were throwing money at him yelling, "stop that". He did some interesting things, and if you simply ignore much of how he explains why things worked, there is a lot to learn. Take the best, and leave the rest.
 
About Calfee, if he had simply said that when I do this, this is what happens, and left off all of the guesses about the mechanism that caused the effect, he would have not been nearly as successful at self promotion. All of that controversy was great advertising. It was like people were throwing money at him yelling, "stop that". He did some interesting things, and if you simply ignore much of how he explains why things worked, there is a lot to learn. Take the best, and leave the rest.
For some damn-fine independent thought encompassing the contents of this thread, refer you all to: Ozfclass.com. Forums. Equipment and technical. Huntsman tuner load development. Everything posted in this thread by “Williada”. His integration of positive compensation, longitudinal shockwave effects, and tuning vs damping passes the smell test, whether it can all be borne out or not, especially the notion of the shockwave producing not only localized dilation of the bore, but Constriction as well. Take the best and leave the rest, as Boyd advises. Seymour
 
Keep in mind I am not a good shot and have very little experience with load development or competition but I have done OCW and watched many videos and have seen many forum posts of OCW. In the tests I have seen, over a charge weight range the POI will rise and fall, so positive compensation occurs on the down slope of charge vs POI @ 100 yards? Can't you calculate the distance at which positive compensation would be most effective if you just used the difference in MV and POI of 2 points on that down slope?

For instance:
if my 223 (80 vld, 2950 fps) has 6 MOA of elevation needed at 400 yards
And if my 223 (80 vld, 2850 fps) has 6.75 MOA of elevation needed at 400 yards

So for the best vertical at 400 yards, I would want my 2850 charge to impact .75" higher then my 2950 charge at 100 yards. More than .75" means my optimal positive compensation occurs at > 400 and if it is less than .75" then my optimal positive compensation occurs at < 400.

And if my 2950 impacts higher then my 2850 charge then I just don't even try using it at distance since it will be worse (negative compensation?).

So in theory the more rigid the system, the smaller the slope will be, which is good for tactical shooters who shoot at different distances but bad for F Class / BR guys who shoot at 1 distance?

Or am I completely misunderstanding this?
 
Using ballistic software, you can see the difference in trajectory at some range either side of target range for two velocities.

It's possible to test at 100 yards to get positive compensation at 400 if your stuff is accurate enough to discriminate the difference, but verify at 400 to be sure.

I think you're understanding this.
 
Keep in mind I am not a good shot and have very little experience with load development or competition but I have done OCW and watched many videos and have seen many forum posts of OCW. In the tests I have seen, over a charge weight range the POI will rise and fall, so positive compensation occurs on the down slope of charge vs POI @ 100 yards? Can't you calculate the distance at which positive compensation would be most effective if you just used the difference in MV and POI of 2 points on that down slope?

For instance:
if my 223 (80 vld, 2950 fps) has 6 MOA of elevation needed at 400 yards
And if my 223 (80 vld, 2850 fps) has 6.75 MOA of elevation needed at 400 yards

So for the best vertical at 400 yards, I would want my 2850 charge to impact .75" higher then my 2950 charge at 100 yards. More than .75" means my optimal positive compensation occurs at > 400 and if it is less than .75" then my optimal positive compensation occurs at < 400.

And if my 2950 impacts higher then my 2850 charge then I just don't even try using it at distance since it will be worse (negative compensation?).

So in theory the more rigid the system, the smaller the slope will be, which is good for tactical shooters who shoot at different distances but bad for F Class / BR guys who shoot at 1 distance?

Or am I completely misunderstanding this?

This is not a direct answer to your questions, which I believe could only be done reliably by actual testing, without having a lot more information. Mechanistically testing the effect of positive compensation is beyond the scope and equipment available to most shooters. As an example, barrel harmonics are affected by barrel stiffness, which is dictated by contour and caliber. So predicting (or measuring) muzzle launch angle for a given load in a given rifle depends largely on how that specific rifle is setup. It's not something that just everyone can go out and measure accurately.

What you can do relatively easily is test empirically, and let the targets tell what works and what does not. That is why most of us are restricted to using various reloading approaches and shooting targets to decide what the optimal loads are. I think the most important you might begin to develop a feel for is about how wide a positive compensation load window is in terms of velocity spread. In other words, within a charge weight window that clearly show positive compensation on the target, what is the velocity spread? How far apart can two load be in velocity, and still produce impacts at approximately the same height on the target. Certainly there must be an upper effective limit over which that process is effective. Those are not numbers that you see mentioned very often, but might be very useful over the long haul.

As far as your questions about PC at various distances, there are many BR shooters that insist on doing load development only at the specific distance at which they shoot. Their comments suggest that a load that shows good compensation at one distance may not be so good at a different distance. The general trajectory of a rifle bullet under the influence of gravity is a parabola. Positive compensation allows for a slightly slower bullet that exits the bore with a slightly higher muzzle launch angle to hit the same vertical spot on a target at some distance as a slightly faster bullet that leaves the muzzle a fraction of a second earlier when the muzzle launch angle is slightly lower. The first bullet is slower, but it's launched with a higher arc. The second bullet is faster, but it's launched with a slightly lower arc, so they arrive at the target at approximately the same elevation. As with the maximum velocity differential over which this effectively occurs I mentioned above, I can also imagine that this effect is dependent on launch angle. In other words, charge weight and their resultant velocities (i.e. barrel occupancy times) and their coincident launch angles that exhibit a very good positive compensation effect at 500 yd may not be the exact same ones that provide the best result at 1000 yd. At least, this is what I surmise from the comments of those have observed that optimal grouping tends to be distance-specific. If the effect was identical at two different distances, it could be argued that a ladder test fired at 1000 yd would be expected to look almost identical to one fired at 500 yd, except with the impacts spaced farther apart. However, we know from actual testing that that this is not always the case.

Unfortunately, not everyone has the ability to test at the farthest distances they will shoot, whether that may be due to range access, wind conditions, or access to appropriate targets. So many of us have no choice but to test at shorter range and hope the results will translate over wide range of shooting distances. Whether that is true probably depends in a large part on the precision requirements for the specific discipline you're shooting. Nonetheless, the effect of barrel harmonics is very complex. In such a case, it is sometimes easier to simply do standardized load development and empirically determine what works best, rather than attempt to define the exact mechanisms of "how" and "why" to the nth degree. I would love to have access to the equipment and facilities to carry out far more involved and extensive testing than I currently do. However, for my sanity, I have reluctantly accepted the fact that it is unlikely I will be able to do so anytime in the near future ;).
 

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