I am a rookie who needs advice.I just bought a savage Fclass in 6mmbr.I've shot a couple of my best groups ever .227 but the thing is only averaging .750 with nearly 175 rds through it.I think it should do much better.I don't know if I should start tinkering or send it back to savage. Any thoughts
troubled savage
- Thread starter bowzarrow
- Start date
I take it is an 8 twist? What bullets are you shooting? Have you relieved the tang at the back of the action? You want to be able to pass the thickness of a dollar bill the whole way around that. How did you work up loads? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to feel out where the problem might be?
pdog06
Gold $$ Contributor
It seems if the gun can shoot a .227" group, it is very capable and that problem may not be the gun itself.
Have you checked all your screws to make sure everything is tight,scope base and rings, action screws, etc)? Are any of your bigger groups looking like double grouping,2 close in one spot and then the other 3 close in another spot). This would lean toward something loose somewhere. Make sure the base screws are actually tight and not bottomed out on the action. I believe it is the front screw hole that dont go all the way thru. If the screw is too long it may seem tight when it is really bottomed out. Try dry-firing the gun while looking at a target to see if the reticle shifts when you pull the trigger. If it does then something is loose, or maybe the scope.
How about the scope itself? Maybe try another one to rule it out. Even if its new they can still be defective.
How consistant are your loads? What kind of prep are you doing? I dont think it should make it jump from a 2 to in the 7's though. I'm leaning more toward something being loose.
Sorry for all the questions, but just trying to help you pinpoint the trouble.
Have you checked all your screws to make sure everything is tight,scope base and rings, action screws, etc)? Are any of your bigger groups looking like double grouping,2 close in one spot and then the other 3 close in another spot). This would lean toward something loose somewhere. Make sure the base screws are actually tight and not bottomed out on the action. I believe it is the front screw hole that dont go all the way thru. If the screw is too long it may seem tight when it is really bottomed out. Try dry-firing the gun while looking at a target to see if the reticle shifts when you pull the trigger. If it does then something is loose, or maybe the scope.
How about the scope itself? Maybe try another one to rule it out. Even if its new they can still be defective.
How consistant are your loads? What kind of prep are you doing? I dont think it should make it jump from a 2 to in the 7's though. I'm leaning more toward something being loose.
Sorry for all the questions, but just trying to help you pinpoint the trouble.
Here is more info. I've tried sierra 107's,berger105's and108's also hornady 105amax. All testing done with zero wind just before sunrise so no mirage either.The larger groups are mostly horizontal but the best are a nice cluster with a flyer dropped out the bottom.It sounds like the general consesus is to give the once over and try again?
One of the rimfire guys used to do all his shooting real early 'before the wind came up'. I would show up and start assembling my flags and they would be ticking over, swapping back and forth, he would be looking at them, cogitating.
Now he has his own flags and doesn't have those unexplained flyers driving him crazy.
Horizontal dispersion is wind 99% of the time.
Now he has his own flags and doesn't have those unexplained flyers driving him crazy.
Horizontal dispersion is wind 99% of the time.
Forum Boss
Administrator
I've talked to the Savage engineers. They do quote that number but in reality they torque the action tighter at the factory. Fred Moreo of Sharpshooters Supply suggests 40-50 inch/lbs. but says it's not critical as long as the tension on all screws is even and "very snug".
On a three screw this may be true. Some guys with the two screws have gotten better accuracy with different torque setting on front and back. Bigger issue than torque is making sure the rear tang where the safety sits isn't making contact. That will throw rounds all over hecks half acre.
If you got Fred to actually spec a torque, I'm amazed. Given his standard answer is "tight".
Hey just an update,I gave the gun the once over,tightened all screws,relieved tang area.I built a few windflags to keep rayjay happy.I took it to the range this morning and fired a couple groups in the low 3's with the average in the 1/2 inch range. I am more optimistic now.I think my only problems are scope,rests and the guy pulling the trigger. thanks for all your help.
bowzarrow: You did not mention: do you get any amount of copper fouling out of the barrel? My 12BVSS copper fouled heavily, saw a 6" streak of copper with my "Hawkeye", went to work with JB,blue label), copper is now minimal. Most factory barrels are ugly with reamer & tool marks across the lands & grooves, and they need to be cleaned-up w/ JB, IOSSO, etc. The factory "bedding" was a hole in the stock into which the receiver fit, with a lot of slop. After tightening the front screw, the tang could be seen flexing down as the rear screw was tightened. After proper bedding with Brownells "Steelbed", the action now sits solid in the stock. Switched from Varget to N135, and the rifle, a factory 1-9.25, 243 converted to 6BR) now consistantly groups 1" to 1 1/2" with 5 & 10 shot groups at 300 yds. Copper fouling is minimal. With a little "tune-up" they are a great rifle, for their cost.
If you haven't bedded the action, do so. That is your largest source of flyers. To confirm, take out all action screws and see if you can move the action in the stock. I bet you can move it front/rear up to 1/8" and side/side,rocking) a little bit. It might even rock, tilting high/low. Essentially, there is no bedding in that stock. Just a nicely sized hole the action drops into.
I have no issues with flyers and bed under the tang area. I also fully bed the recoil lug - all sides. I want this area to be an interference fit so the action cannot move AT ALL during recoil. When I put the action into the stock, it should feel like a solid unit with no play, rocking, movement. The screws are only there to keep the action from falling out of the stock - not load bearing devices.
As for action screw tightness, if the bedding is done right AND the pillars are sized properly. You action screws should go from loose to firm tight in under 1/2 a turn of the screwdriver. It should be like you 'hit the wall'.
If there is a gradual increase in tension, something is moving and you are likely bending the action INTO the bedding. Your action screws should never loosen during use,clear sign bedding is wonky).
I would also suggest you bed under the barrel nut and first 2 inches of barrel. That is a heavy pipe hanging off that action and the recoil lug may be flexing. Giving a little support under the barrel gets rid of all action stress and can really help to eliminate vertical too.
Do you weigh your loads to the same tenth of a gr? Many barrels have a narrow tuning spot and a variance of .2 to .3gr is enough to throw shots well outside the group. The case volume of a 6BR makes load consistency even more important.
Do you measure runout in your ammo? If your ammo has runout above 3thou, it might be a cause of flyers,some bullets are more tolerant of runout).
Same goes for seating depth. If you just set the die once and loaded various brands of bullets, you could be well outside the needs of that bullet/load.
Rests, bags, scopes, shooting form/consistency, etc are other areas to investigate to reduce group sizes. Shooting 1/4mins groups is not easy even with a rifle that can do it consistently.
I expect your Savage to shoot 1/2 min, maybe a bit better over the long haul. That is not your best group but average of your worse ones.
If you are shooting in the early morn, consider using a 2ft strip of plastic flagging tape. A normal wind flag may be too heavy to show the light swirly winds that happen at dawn.
Some of the toughest air I have shot in has been at dawn. Twirly, switching enough to push shots outside the teeny tiny groups we expect in 'dead' air.
Doesn't take much wind to push us 1/8" does it.
Jerry
I have no issues with flyers and bed under the tang area. I also fully bed the recoil lug - all sides. I want this area to be an interference fit so the action cannot move AT ALL during recoil. When I put the action into the stock, it should feel like a solid unit with no play, rocking, movement. The screws are only there to keep the action from falling out of the stock - not load bearing devices.
As for action screw tightness, if the bedding is done right AND the pillars are sized properly. You action screws should go from loose to firm tight in under 1/2 a turn of the screwdriver. It should be like you 'hit the wall'.
If there is a gradual increase in tension, something is moving and you are likely bending the action INTO the bedding. Your action screws should never loosen during use,clear sign bedding is wonky).
I would also suggest you bed under the barrel nut and first 2 inches of barrel. That is a heavy pipe hanging off that action and the recoil lug may be flexing. Giving a little support under the barrel gets rid of all action stress and can really help to eliminate vertical too.
Do you weigh your loads to the same tenth of a gr? Many barrels have a narrow tuning spot and a variance of .2 to .3gr is enough to throw shots well outside the group. The case volume of a 6BR makes load consistency even more important.
Do you measure runout in your ammo? If your ammo has runout above 3thou, it might be a cause of flyers,some bullets are more tolerant of runout).
Same goes for seating depth. If you just set the die once and loaded various brands of bullets, you could be well outside the needs of that bullet/load.
Rests, bags, scopes, shooting form/consistency, etc are other areas to investigate to reduce group sizes. Shooting 1/4mins groups is not easy even with a rifle that can do it consistently.
I expect your Savage to shoot 1/2 min, maybe a bit better over the long haul. That is not your best group but average of your worse ones.
If you are shooting in the early morn, consider using a 2ft strip of plastic flagging tape. A normal wind flag may be too heavy to show the light swirly winds that happen at dawn.
Some of the toughest air I have shot in has been at dawn. Twirly, switching enough to push shots outside the teeny tiny groups we expect in 'dead' air.
Doesn't take much wind to push us 1/8" does it.
Jerry
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