Trade off... accuracy for speed

[Gary in MD]

Two varmint rifles - one is shooting at 223 velocities and shooting 1/4” groups and the other is shooting Swift velocities and shooting 1/2” groups. Both making kills at normal ranges, maybe out of 100 shots the edge goes to the 223 for hits.
But I’m taking the Swift every time because the targets that I hit will be scattered all over the landscape!!!!
Gary

 

[Ned Ludd]

In shooting competitions such as F-Class, even a point or two, or an "X" or two, can often make the difference between winning and not winning. So you find a certain proportion of competitors that are always going to try to eek and scratch out that last teeny little bit of performance.

IMO - if you can get comparable precision at a higher velocity node, why not? Of course that also assumes safe operating pressure, ability to effectively handle increased recoil, etc. But realistically, unless you're talking at least a 50 to 75 fps increase in velocity (or more), any gain in ballistic efficiency is probably so small that most people cannot reliably shoot the difference.

 

[WindSurgeon]

For hunting, Speed Thrills - Payload Kills. The only rationale for more speed is to have a long range "0" so you don't have to hold over between X and Y distances. That can be useful, not so much here in Minnesota, but when I go out west where longer shots are the norm.

 

[Lefty Trigger]

Two varmint rifles - one is shooting at 223 velocities and shooting 1/4” groups and the other is shooting Swift velocities and shooting 1/2” groups. Both making kills at normal ranges, maybe out of 100 shots the edge goes to the 223 for hits.
But I’m taking the Swift every time because the targets that I hit will be scattered all over the landscape!!!!
Gary

This brings back some memories of groundhog hunting with a 22-250, guts them where they stand!

 

[JFrank]

Mach 1 at a thousand yards is kinda important

^^^ minimum speed for 1 k

 

[406pat]

Accuracy for the intended use and accuracy for small groups are two different things. If I shoot a 142 6.5 cal SMK at 2800 fps a 10 mph crosswind will push it 6.8 MOA or 70.8" at 1000 yds. The same bullet in the same wind at 2850 fps will move 6.6 MOA or 68.9". Now 0.2 MOA difference doesn't seem like a lot, but the difference between a consistent 1/2 MOA rifle and consistent 1/4 MOA rifle is pretty noticable and that's 0.25 MOA.
If a shooters game is 1000 yd belly benchrest, they're likely to see better accuracy on their target out of a faster load that is slightly more loose than a slower load that is tighter. Fewer wallet groups at 100 but maybe fewer 9s lost to wind in matches.

Of course there's a tipping point where that theory doesn't prove out but each shooter in each different situation will have to establish that for themselves and their equipment.

 

[mikecr]

I believe accuracy is the most powerful of all ballistic attributes.
And that with extending distances, accuracy is not a single extreme but a relative balance.

 

[Drop Port]

You will usually find 3 nodes that work but the upper one sometimes is hard to get, sometimes the cost of the upper node isn't worth it..... A funny thing is when I slowed down it seemed to cut the wind better.....jim

I often find this to be true. With my last build I wanted the upper node if possible so I did what I could and went long barrel and plenty of FB. My 6.5 x 47 came in at 2780 fps and came in again 100fps higher with the same or better accuracy. For unknown distance steel, live varmint and deer I shoot the upper node, target only I would rather shoot the lower and save barrel. It just loves puttin the coal to it and for this application it works.

 

[JFrank]

I've found three nodes more than once as Jim pointed out,
My opinion is that for short range applications the lower node shoots pretty darn good.
The mid node is a great place to preform seating test and primer test.
And then there is the upper node" you know the one that's hard to repeat but shoots so freaking sweet you gotta have it!
The one that makes you crazy trying to stay in tune!
The one that stays supersonic ( Mach 1) way beyond a 1000 yards!
The one!
Of course your results may vary

 

[msinc]

Jim,

As long as it is "Tactical Paint ". Lmao!!

Paul

Your a wildman boltfluter!!!!!

 

[nmkid]

For me to hit it at 1000 yds I would want it that big or better yet this...

View attachment 1069704

Guess you don't own a Creedmoor!

 

[rammac]

Mach 1 at a thousand yards is kinda important

But you don't need muzzle velocities of 3000 + fps to keep a bullet super sonic at 1000 yards. Besides, bullets really only become unstable during the trans-sonic phase, on either side of the barrier the bullet is stable.

 

[Baddog0302]

Then again, people that brag about how fast their bullet go are probable compensating for
short comings in other areas

 

[ShootDots]

Accuracy trumps speed all the time! I shoot F-Open and much of my shooting is from 500 / 600 and 1000. If you can not hold very near 1/3rd m.o.a., you will not score well enough to win in most cases. T-Rust me, holding 1/2 m.o.a. at 1000, for 20 shots for score, is nigh on to impossible unless conditions are near perfect! I have shot numerous <5" groups at 1000 FOR 5 SHOTS! However, I do not believe I have ever shot even an 8" group for 20 shots! I have witnessed it very few times. Remember: Shooting at known distances on targets does not require speed. To shoot small at known distances, in order to win, does require accuracy! If you get to a "known node" that is up from a lower node, it will be going fast enough! EXAMPLE: A .260Ackley has basically 2 "upper nodes", ONE at about 2920 and another at 2975-80. There is also a node up at 3070! But if you go there, and you can with the Berger 140LRBT and RL-26, you will eat your barrel up in very short order! Which ever of the other two nodes works best in your rifle is preferable. Both are easily obtained.. It does you no good to get to a target faster if your ability to stay in the X or 10 ring is difficult! Use enough speed to burn your powder cleanly for long shot strings BUT slow enough to get excellent accuracy!

 

[JFrank]

But you don't need muzzle velocities of 3000 + fps to keep a bullet super sonic at 1000 yards. Besides, bullets really only become unstable during the trans-sonic phase, on either side of the barrier the bullet is stable.

Your right 3000 at the muzzle isn't necessary.
Let me ask you this,
If It's not SS at a thousand how can you keep that load from falling apart like a cheap suit ?
Help me understand how a bullet in flight can go transonic de stabilize then correct itself and hit the bullseye right were you aimed it.

 

[swd]

Your right 3000 at the muzzle isn't necessary.
Let me ask you this,
If It's not SS at a thousand how can you keep that load from falling apart like a cheap suit ?
Help me understand how a bullet in flight can go transonic de stabilize then correct itself and hit the bullseye right were you aimed it.

Not all bullets destabilize while going from SS to TS. The 168 and 175SMK's are excellent examples of both. 168's will tumble and 175SMK's fly right on through.

 

[406pat]

Accuracy trumps speed all the time!

I would say accuracy for the purpose trumps raw speed all the time. Let's say the 2800 fps load above shoots 1/3 MOA and the 2850 load shoots 1/2 MOA. In perfect conditions with a perfect hold the 2800 load will put all rounds into a 3.49" diameter circle at 1k. The 2850 load will put them into a 5.24" circle. In this case the 2800 load is the no brainer.

With a 10 mph wind, the max drift plus error (1/2 diameter of circle) on the 2800 load is 72.55". the 2850 load is 71.52". As the wind goes up, the difference will keep increasing. Somewhere under 10mph, there's a tipping point where the "less accurate" but faster load is actually going to start giving better scores.

Now an inch at 1k is far more theoretical than practical as there are far more variables in the real world than this example. But what this example shows is that it's very important to understand and minimize as many of those variables as we can.

 

[Corey Schwanz]

There are some scenarios where you need the bullet at a certain muzzle velocity or faster or it simply won't make it to the target. Outside of those few instances, accuracy should always take precedent over speed. The deer you shoot won't care if the muzzle velocity is 2870 or 3025.

Now if I can achieve the same accuracy at a higher velocity, then by all means I'll do it!! But I won't shoot a fast load just because its faster if I have to give up accuracy to do it.

 

[dickn52]

I went the other way when I stepped down from 223 to 6.5CM. I was moving at 3000 fps on the 223 and backed off to about 2750 on the Creedmoor. And yet my dope sheets work, at least to my 850 yd mark. Of course the Kinetic energy drops at the slower speed, but I shoot paper and metal not animals so that's a wash for me.

 

[mdbruce]

If you can't shoot them small then shoot them fast

I want fire breathing from the barrel and jackets being ripped off

Of course I'd rather shoot tiny groups...but I can't.