Tracking

[Si-Snipe]

How essential is perfectly straight tracking when shooting free recoil? I have a 2 x 3" plate setup using a Seb mini on the front and a metal rear 3" bag holder on the rear. Under tracking the ret heads to the right but returns to the target when pushed back to battery. I'd be very interested to hear thoughts from people who have tested this.

Regards
Simon.

 

[memilanuk]

Might take a look at this video by @Alex Wheeler

 

[Si-Snipe]

Might take a look at this video by @Alex Wheeler

Thanks for that reply. That truly is refined technique. It doesn't however demonstrate whether there is any difference in accuracy between a rifle that tracks perfectly straight and a rifle that doesn't. I'm very interested to know whether a rifle that recoils slightly off centre but returns on target consistently would suffer a reduction in accuracy.

Thanks
Si

 

[Keith Glasscock]

My testing indicates that tracking can make a difference when the recoil motion of the rifle is interrupted during the first little bit of movement.

Think of it this way, anything that isn't perfectly straight will be less forgiving.

 

[Si-Snipe]

My testing indicates that tracking can make a difference when the recoil motion of the rifle is interrupted during the first little bit of movement.

Think of it this way, anything that isn't perfectly straight will be less forgiving.

Thanks Keith

My current setup is shooting around 0.25-0.29MOA for multiple 5 shot groups. My next step is to test whether the tracking actually makes any difference to out-right accuracy. I imagine the first movement on the gun is the most critical as this is when the bullet is leaving the muzzle. It would be interesting to know how far the gun generally moves before the bullet exits the muzzle? This will clearly change when you factor in different bullet weight, powder, cartridges, bag resistance and gun weight etc.

Thanks
Si

 

[ShootDots]

I have a friend of mine who does reasonably well shooting F-Open with a 6.5 X 47L. However, during every match he would get a shot or two that "went off into the wild blue yonder". He asked me to help him to see what he was doing wrong. So, we took a morning and went to 600 yards to shoot 5 shot groups. He brought out his "full blown" F-Open rifle that I know shoots very well indeed. He set up on the firing berm and started to shoot. I noticed one major thing right off the bat. He had a OLD (and I mean OLD) small bunny-ear full leather bag that he set cross-wise... I let him shoot and he was experiencing trouble in short order. I showed him his bag and told him to straighten it out. It did a little better but not a lot better. I broke out one of my Protektor bags with the cordura ears. Powdered it up a bit, set it up for him so his rifle was sliding correctly in the bag and let him shoot. He shot 4 more groups of 5 with NO "flyers".. He has since got a decent rear bag and his scores have increased considerably!

 

[BoydAllen]

I believe that the need for perfect tracking is directly related to the need to run shots quickly, shooting free or near to free recoil. If you are doing a type of shooting where this is not an issue, or that is not a method that you employ then I think that it would be much less of a factor. As the previous poster indicated, rear bags can be a huge factor in this. I remember a post sometime back by a short range group benchrest shooter who tried six different rear bags before finding one that did not give an occasional flier. Shooters generally like to spend their money on things that they can point to and say in effect "Look what I got." and spending what might seem like a small fortune in pursuit of the perfect rear bag does not fall into that category. There is also this, there are shooters that do very well holding shouldering their rifles, and shooting that way, tracking is a virtual non issue. Many shooters have not bothered to teach themselves to shoot well this way, and are under the mistaken impression that it is not appropriate when the best results are sought. I can point to a highly positioned Hall of Fame shooter who is in the record book that shoulders and holds his rifle.

 

[johara1]

Tracking is returning to battery and not having to move the front rest for the next shot. Second is seeing your hit on the clay birds. Both are important. Third ..... yes it helps them shoot better. They will shoot a ten all the way back, same as against the stop.... ask me I set it off pushing it up ...... Plates work! Jim

 

[johara1]

I believe that the need for perfect tracking is directly related to the need to run shots quickly, shooting free or near to free recoil. If you are doing a type of shooting where this is not an issue, or that is not a method that you employ then I think that it would be much less of a factor. As the previous poster indicated, rear bags can be a huge factor in this. I remember a post sometime back by a short range group benchrest shooter who tried six different rear bags before finding one that did not give an occasional flier. Shooters generally like to spend their money on things that they can point to and say in effect "Look what I got." and spending what might seem like a small fortune in pursuit of the perfect rear bag does not fall into that category. There is also this, there are shooters that do very well holding shouldering their rifles, and shooting that way, tracking is a virtual non issue. Many shooters have not bothered to teach themselves to shoot well this way, and are under the mistaken impression that it is not appropriate when the best results are sought. I can point to a highly positioned Hall of Fame shooter who is in the record book that shoulders and holds his rifle.

Boyd, that is short range and is doesn't work for long range. No field of daisy wheels, no going back to the sighter, you have to see the hit unless you are on pull targets. You have to pick a condition to zero in and shoot in and you can't see the hits you have to rely on the same condition . you don't have time to make things perfect, free recoil does this. I was a picker but there are time you need to run them you don't have time to hold the gun perfectly and especially for 10 shots .... Jim

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Thanks Keith

My current setup is shooting around 0.25-0.29MOA for multiple 5 shot groups. My next step is to test whether the tracking actually makes any difference to out-right accuracy. I imagine the first movement on the gun is the most critical as this is when the bullet is leaving the muzzle. It would be interesting to know how far the gun generally moves before the bullet exits the muzzle? This will clearly change when you factor in different bullet weight, powder, cartridges, bag resistance and gun weight etc.

Thanks
Si

I've run the numbers. If I remember correctly, my F-Open rifle moves .050" before the bullet releases - assuming a frictionless bag setup.

 

[BoydAllen]

Boyd, that is short range and is doesn't work for long range. No field of daisy wheels, no going back to the sighter, you have to see the hit unless you are on pull targets. You have to pick a condition to zero in and shoot in and you can't see the hits you have to rely on the same condition . you don't have time to make things perfect, free recoil does this. I was a picker but there are time you need to run them you don't have time to hold the gun perfectly and especially for 10 shots .... Jim

I believe that I said that the need for tracking is related to the need to run shots, which is in complete agreement with what you just wrote. Short range benchrest shooters run groups too. I believe that the whole RBLPRE thing was developed for that very reason in short range and then was taken up in long range, for good reason...it works. The OP did not specify what sort of shooting he is doing, which is the only reason that I brought up the whole holding the rifle thing. I have run into a lot of shooters who are under the mistaken impression that all top level bench shooting is done free recoil. That can hold them back, especially if their equipment is not suitable for that style of shooting, which most that was not built for that use is not.

 

[Tim Singleton]

I have 3 bench rifle I shoot 100-200 yard group
One of the 3 tracks much better. It out shoots the other two when you push it back to battery and the crosshair is right on the previous point of aim that's priceless. Not all guns will come close to doing this.
When you come across one hang on to it.
Just sliding it back and forth in the bags is not an accurate assessment you must see what it does when fired

 

[Tim Singleton]

Thanks for that reply. That truly is refined technique. It doesn't however demonstrate whether there is any difference in accuracy between a rifle that tracks perfectly straight and a rifle that doesn't. I'm very interested to know whether a rifle that recoils slightly off centre but returns on target consistently would suffer a reduction in accuracy.

Thanks
Si

the rifle that tracks straight will have the advantage

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Thanks Keith

My current setup is shooting around 0.25-0.29MOA for multiple 5 shot groups. My next step is to test whether the tracking actually makes any difference to out-right accuracy. I imagine the first movement on the gun is the most critical as this is when the bullet is leaving the muzzle. It would be interesting to know how far the gun generally moves before the bullet exits the muzzle? This will clearly change when you factor in different bullet weight, powder, cartridges, bag resistance and gun weight etc.

Thanks
Si

I like you're thinking! I remember an old Precision Shooting article where gun travel was calculated for the time the bullet is in the bore. As you say, it changes a little with the loads, gun weight, etc, but about .050" is my general rule of thumb, so it's not far at all. Theoretically, the stock only has to be straight for .050 of an inch.

So no..I do not think that stock straightness is a big factor to accuracy, but it can and does speed re aquiring the target aim point faster in a return to battery set up. This would amount to exactly nothing in score shooting, IMHO, but is of some small value when running fast, for group.

Just my 2 cents worth.--Mike Ezell

 

[Bart B.]

To shoot groups in the zero's, the rifle has to move exactly the same for that 1.1 or thereabouts milliseconds of time while each bullet is in the barrel. Otherwise it won't leave in a repeatable direction for each shot. Bullseye shooters slung up prone shooting stuff that tested 1/2 MOA for 20 shots benched then call all 20 shots in a match inside a half MOA area can end up with a group on target 2 to 3 MOA in size.

Border Barrels' Geoffery Kolbe has a web site one can plug in their barrel profile dimensions, rifle weight and rifle center of gravity that calculates the muzzle axis direction for a free recoiling rifle. It's whip axis is only vertical plane because the COG can change only vertical. The muzzle whip axis in the horizontal plane wil be similar if COG is offset horizontally. If there's more resistance on one side of the stock, that will change the amount of horizontal barrel time muzzle whip.

Once the vibration cycle is shown, use the barrel time in milliseconds on the graph to see the angle the bullet leaves relative to its static zero angle when the firing pin dents the primer.

http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/rimfire_accuracy/barrel_vibrations.htm

This shows how things change with rifle design but it's not reality for your rifle resting on bags; just close

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I do not believe there is a pure accuracy advantage to a straight stock. I have in fact tested it. I could shoot no smaller after fixing a very crooked stock. Good bag setup is part of the reason why. The gun has to recoil the same every time. Good bags will allow this. I do think if your bag setup is marginal that a straight stock may help you. What a straight stock really does is help you shoot the rifle better. Less movement of the rest to get back on is always a good thing, less chance of a cross fire, more time to pay attention to conditions, and if your sport allows, MUCH faster shooting. If the crosshair doesnt leave the X in recoil it doesnt have to find its way back! Plates and rudder exist to fill a real need, most that have used them always will. The only time guys dont want them is usually they have a pretty stock and dont want to effect the looks of it. All the long range Benchrest stocks I build come standard with the rudder. Its not really an option and I never really increased the price for them. And trust me I didnt think they were fun to make I want my rifles to be the best so they all get rudders. Its all the little things that add up. Plates are fine too, usually we need weight in the rear so the rudders are nice. But theres a ton of 3" guns with 4" plates out there.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

It's whip axis is only vertical plane because the COG can change only vertical. The muzzle whip axis in the horizontal plane wil be similar if COG is offset horizontally. If there's more resistance on one side of the stock, that will change the amount of horizontal barrel time muzzle whip.

This seems to be in disagreement with itself and with reality. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to convey.

First of all, the barrel does move in more than the vertical plane. This has been proven many times but is evident by simply shooting loads that show both vertical and horizontal. Maybe we are in agreement , but I don't read it that way.

Secondly, I do agree that there is more at play as to why there is horizontal than meets the eye, but also, more than just resistance on the stock.

Due to gravity, everything(that I can think of) is vertically biased. Adding weight at the muzzle(a tuner). makes it more vertically biased, but even still, tuners alone DO affect more than just vertical, on the target.

I'm not sure what your point is, but it's interesting, nonetheless.

 

[500Stroker]

How essential is perfectly straight tracking when shooting free recoil? I have a 2 x 3" plate setup using a Seb mini on the front and a metal rear 3" bag holder on the rear. Under tracking the ret heads to the right but returns to the target when pushed back to battery. I'd be very interested to hear thoughts from people who have tested this.

Regards
Simon.

I have found tracking to be very important in the overall results on the target.
I believe that all the guy's that have replied have good reasoning and that should lead you to how good tracking could make a difference for your overall performance.
Perhaps a good picture of your current setup may help us to understand what you are up against.

 

[johara1]

A gun that tracks perfectly does shoot better, due to time involved in getting them back to center for the next shot. These all have to do with the conditions and how long it holds. While you are fooling around trying to center them up you are not watching the conditions and you will get burned. If only moves a little on recoil while the bullet is in the barrel is true to a point first the time is with short barreled guns not long range guns. Put your gun on the target and very slight rearward movement and it moves from the point of aim, Tracking matters, follow through... remember that term. This is like .2 powder large is close enough, do not confuse what works with short range to long range....... Jim

 

[Bart B.]

Secondly, I do agree that there is more at play as to why there is horizontal than meets the eye, but also, more than just resistance on the stock.

Due to gravity, everything(that I can think of) is vertically biased. Adding weight at the muzzle(a tuner). makes it more vertically biased, but even still, tuners alone DO affect more than just vertical, on the target.

Doesn't the laws of physics work equally in horizontal axes besides vertical ones?

Why else would a left handed shooter shooting the same rifle slung up in prone have his windage zero the opposite side of the sight's bore sight setting than a right handed ones zero?

Why else would someone shooting prone as above see horizontal shot stringing with his front elbow shifting left and right in different positions under the barrel?

Why is a zero obtained with a rifle shooting prone horizontally changed when the rifle's zeroed as it rests on bags atop a bench and its butt against the shooter's shoulder?

The horizontal position of the mass center holding the rifle causes different amounts of barrel whip in that axis while the bullet goes down the barrel.