• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Top end scopes, wich one?

Well, there's your first mistake....I would'nt consider either of those a "hunting scope". Hunting what??? Woodchucks???? The Conquest line IS NOT German optics, in that it does not have anywhere near the coatings of, for example, a Diavari. Keep telling yourself....."European glass WAS the top dog. But that is very debatable today".....and you might start to believe it, even though you know better....but you wont convince anyone else that owns and uses it. Especially when it's getting dark.
Lets see...Leica or Burris????? Burris or Zeiss Diavari???? Talk about a no-brainer!!!!Good god y'all!!!!!
The bottom line is that you get what you pay for...if you don't need it, then I understand not paying for it. You don't need German glass to shoot at targets in the middle of the day, I get it...but, do you really think I paid over 2K for a scope that is only as good as a $400 Asian because there is no difference?????


The scopes that I compared are on whitetail deer rifles. The last time that I checked, hunting whitetail deer in Pennsylvania, is HUNTING ! The European scope that you are using won't do anything different than the "Made in USA" (with Pentax Japanese lens') Burris that I'm using. (for my hunting application) We have legal shooting hours in PA. If you shoot after the legal shooting hours, then you are a law breaker. I'm not one.

I do some ground-hog hunting also, and in PA you hunt these earth-pigs in the daytime. My Nightforce BR 8-32x-56mm, & my Sightron SIII 8-32x-56mm will focus every hog that I aim at, PERIOD ! And when I crank up on the elevation turret, its right where it needs to be.

If I were to hunt at night, then I would use a scope with a 72mm objective lens. But I don't.

By the way, look at the equipment lists at short range BR, mid range BR, varmint matches, & 1000 yard benchrest matches, and tell me how many European Optics you see listed ? Probably less than 2 %. I wonder why ? Because there is NO advantage to using Europeam glass for these disciplines.

If it makes you feel better that you spent 3 or 4 times as much for the European brand, than I did for my Nightforce BR, then hip, hip hurray !

Happy Resurrection Day !
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: JRS
The scopes that I compared are on whitetail deer rifles. The last time that I checked, hunting whitetail deer in Pennsylvania, is HUNTING ! The European scope that you are using won't do anything different than the "Made in USA" (with Pentax Japanese lens') Burris that I'm using. We have legal shooting hours in PA. If you shoot after the legal shooting hours, then you are a law breaker. I'm not one.

I do some ground-hog hunting also, and in PA you hunt these earth-pigs in the daytime. My Nightforce BR 8-32x-56mm, & my Sightron SIII 8-32x-56mm will focus every hog that I aim at, PERIOD ! And when I crank up on the elevation turret, its right where it needs to be.

If I were to hunt at night, then I would use a scope with a 72mm objective lens. But I don't.

By the way, look at the equipment lists at short range BR, mid range BR, varmint matches, & 1000 yard benchrest matches, and tell me how many European Optics you see listed ? Probably less than 2 %. I wonder why ? Because there is NO advantage to using Europeam glass for these disciplines.

If it makes you feel better that you spent 3 or 4 times as much for the European brand, than I did for my Nightforce BR, then hip, hip hurray !

Happy Resurrection Day !
We lost the opportunity to shoot 3 trophy bucks in the last 2 years because we couldn't see them. It was in legal shooting game hours also and they weren't even far shots. One was at 525 yards and in the field, one was at 475 and in a field, but it was foggy. The last one this year was at 625 and in behind trees. Like I said all legal shooting hours and not far. If I can count points in my Kowa Highlanders we should be able to see good enough to shoot them. Not everybody hunts the same way or the same places or under the same conditions.

The reason you don't see the European scopes in BR. Is because they are too heavy. All BR classes have weight limits and they are usually on the light side. It limits barrels, scopes and even actions because of that weight limit. It is not because of the price, Glass or mechanics. The Schmidt and Bender scope is used by a lot of sniper teams across the world including our marines. Matt
 
The human eye can productively use only so much light. Bigger, is not necessarily better. The 6-24x72 would not offer an advantage after the sun goes down. Its all about the exit pupil. 72 divided by 6=13MM. 24 divided by 72=3mm. Your pupil can't expand to 13MM. The end result is wasted light that you can't use.
 
Last edited:
The human eye can productively use only so much light. Bigger, is not necessarily better. The 6-24x72 would not offer an advantage after the sun goes down.
The human eye can productively use only so much light. Bigger, is not necessarily better. The 6-24x72 would not offer an advantage after the sun goes down. Its all about the exit pupil. 72 divided by 6=13MM. 24 divided by 72=3mm. Your pupil can't expand to 13MM. The end result is wasted light that you can't use.
Saying this is like saying lens coatings don't help in low light. We both know that's not true. Matt
 
Its not just about light transmission exit pupil etc on hunting scopes binos and spotters..its also about the specialized coatings and how they enhance contrasts and colors. The euros do alot more low light hunting under gloomy conditions so the german optics people evolved over the years to develop their coatings to better help hunters pick out game blended into its environment under less than ideal conditions.
 
The human eye can productively use only so much light. Bigger, is not necessarily better. The 6-24x72 would not offer an advantage after the sun goes down. Its all about the exit pupil. 72 divided by 6=13MM. 24 divided by 72=3mm. Your pupil can't expand to 13MM. The end result is wasted light that you can't use.

Very good point and often missed when discussing objective size, magnification and the human pupil. But light transmission has nothing to do with objective size. The number of lenses and the lens coatings determine how much light make it through to your eye.
 
Last edited:
For what the OP is asking let me ask this question. Is the additional $1500 in cost of the S&B worth the small improvement in glass quality?
 
For what the OP is asking let me ask this question. Is the additional $1500 in cost of the S&B worth the small improvement in glass quality?

There is more to 'rating' a precision scope than just the glass. So basically you get what you pay for with scopes binos n spotters.

Of all the 3 types above I would say from my experiences in the hunting world is that most people allocate too much of their budget on a scope and not enough on binos.

Happiness to me is sittin on a hillside in the eastern oregon high desert scanning for critters with a pair of swaro EL 10x42's
 
There is more to 'rating' a precision scope than just the glass. So basically you get what you pay for with scopes binos n spotters.

Of all the 3 types above I would say from my experiences in the hunting world is that most people allocate too much of their budget on a scope and not enough on binos.

Happiness to me is sittin on a hillside in the eastern oregon high desert scanning for critters with a pair of swaro EL 10x42's

I agree in getting what you pay for to a degree. S&B to me is over priced compared to what is out there in the market. They are not $2500 better than their competitor. And I have owned three S&B's.

To me glass quality is subjective and yes I have owned the best there is. In scopes, mechanical reliability is most important. In binoculars and spotting scopes glass quality is most important but not where I think I need a $6000 spotter when a less expensive one will do the same thing. I just sold my 20+ year old pair of SLC's because the quality was just not on par with what is out there now and I'm not just talking German glass.
 
Well i would have to say that 20+ yr old German glass is not close to 2016 german glass. So what do you think is the greatest bino out there now that isnt german?
 
Last edited:
The exit pupil size is dictated by the objective size and the magnification; that's just optics 101. The amount of light entering the scope is dictated by the size of the objective; the bigger the objective the greater the amount of light coming in.

Now, that said, while the size of the exit pupil is dictated by the objective and the magnification, it doesn't mean that the exit pupil will have a lot of light or even quality light.

We talk about lens coatings has if they were magical. Well in a way, they are but they are also well understood. Uncoated lenses have about 5% of the light crossing each air/glass boundary reflected. Reflected means lost. So in a riflescope with 5 lenses, the front side of the lens peels off 5%, leaving 95%. Then the rear side of the lens peels of 5% of 95%, and then the front side of the second lens peels off 5% of 90.25% and so on. After passing through the fifth lens, the amount of light is not at 63.02% of when it came in. That's degradation.

Lens camera companies such as Nikon developed coating techniques that reduced dramatically the amount of light reflected by the air/glass boundary, to provide better color fidelity. Since visible light is made up of multiple wavelengths (what we call colors,) there was a need to have multiple coatings to deal with these colors, which were being reflected in different percentages. This is called multi-coating. BTW, these coatings are extremely thin and are applied in some interesting ways. Bing it and read about it.

Other coatings were developed for the objective lens to repel water and other stuff, to harden the glass, etc. Some companies developed various techniques to apply the coating and give them catchy names. I read about that in photography magazines, websites and so on.

Nowadays, the coatings are fairly similar across the board and the light transmission differences between high end scopes are such that it's impossible for human eye to detect. A few years back I read an interesting article in a German magazine that compared a bunch of high end scopes like S&B, Swarovski, Leupold, Docter, Zeiss, Nightforce and Burris, and it included a low end Nikon Monarch scope, just for fun, I think.

These tests were done at a optical laboratory. They measured a bunch of features and qualities but the one that astounded them (and me,) was the light transmission. They measured it in day and night conditions. The highest light transmission figures were the ones for the Nikon Monarch, a $400 scope. It had a day % of 93.3% and a night % of 91.4%, beating out the second place S&B which had 93.1% and 91.0%. The article described their amazement at these figures. Of course, the S&B had better knobs and other features, but this comparison was a real eye opener, pardon the pun.

(Before you ask, this was several years ago and the article is no longer found on the web. I have a printed copy and the translation I did from German to English, somewhere.) But the thing of it is, the vaunted "German glass" was pissed on and chewed up by the Japanese glass, and at a fraction of the price. Nowadays the scope manufacturers all claim light transmission figures north of 90 to 94%. I've seen 95% recently. The point is, they are all pretty much the same and human eye can't tell the difference. So at this point, it's a function of how much light comes into the scope since almost all of it will make it through.

If your riflescope has colors that pop with good contrast, you have great coating and by the same token, a high rate of light transmittance. The next frontier was color fringing, or chromatic aberration and that's what ED glass corrects.

Magnification range, ED glass, reliable adjustment knobs, zoom ratio, adjustment range, those are the things you want to look for in scopes. Get what suits your needs.
 
Now we have a $400 Nikon made in the Phillipines that "blows away" anything European, "that your eyes cant tell a difference in anyway"....where have I read that line before??? Wait,....yeah, I remember now...it was the last time some maker of Asian glass was trying to sell that it was better.
You guys are absolutely hilarious!!!!
 
Spin it any way you want. No matter what name you hang on it, light transmission, clarity, light gathering, grind, absence of chromatic abberation, coatings and any other way you want to describe it....the image you see when you look thru the scope is the "GLASS" period, end of story. I really wish I could own a Ferrari, but I am not going to convince myself and try to tell others that a Chevy is just as good and "you cant tell the difference at 70 mph", because I cant afford one.
 
Spin it any way you want. No matter what name you hang on it, light transmission, clarity, light gathering, grind, absence of chromatic abberation, coatings and any other way you want to describe it....the image you see when you look thru the scope is the "GLASS" period, end of story. I really wish I could own a Ferrari, but I am not going to convince myself and try to tell others that a Chevy is just as good and "you cant tell the difference at 70 mph", because I cant afford one.

Light transmission has everything to do with the number of lenses / glass and their coatings. I think we agree on that. But my point is why would the OP want to buy a Mercedes SL - S&B when he is going off roading when a Chevy 4X4 - Vortex is a better choice for his use. My comparison is only meant to compare cost and not quality.
 
Got to love the scope snobs. If it's not German it's not a scope and it's garbage. Ignorance at its best. Lol Seems like trying to justify spending all that money and having to feel superior. Having experience with many brands I know that the "only glass is German glass" argument is completely false. But keep believing it if you need to to make yourself feel better.
 
Spin it any way you want. No matter what name you hang on it, light transmission, clarity, light gathering, grind, absence of chromatic abberation, coatings and any other way you want to describe it....the image you see when you look thru the scope is the "GLASS" period, end of story. I really wish I could own a Ferrari, but I am not going to convince myself and try to tell others that a Chevy is just as good and "you cant tell the difference at 70 mph", because I cant afford one.
If S&B fitted a scope with Ohara glass, and March fitted a scope with S&B glass (without you knowing), both with the same reticle and set at the same power, do you honestly believe you would be able to tell which scope contained the German glass and which contained the Japanese glass? If your Ferrari was equipped with a Nissan GT-R engine and the GT-R equipped with the Ferrari engine (without you knowing), other than the exhaust note, do you really think you could tell the difference? "Aspire to inspire before you expire".
 
Last edited:
I do not believe S&B makes its own glass; they probably buy it from Schott AG, Jenaer Glass or other places. Riflescope makers seem to be secretive about the provenance of their glass and it probably varies over time. Optical glass makers such as Hikari (Nikon,) Schott, Jenaer, Hoya, Ohara, Pilkington, CDGM, Corning, POTL, Docter, etc probably sell their wares to anyone who wants to buy.

The world has evolved and we would be surprised to find out who sells what to whom. Shocked even.

When it comes to riflescope, a lot of the cost is in the actual assembly of the device, where tolerances are extremely tight and the skill level required to assemble these scopes is very high.

BTW, Ferrari is Italian, not German, so let's not mix our metaphors too much. Also, do not forget that you pay a lot of money just for the brand name on scopes.
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,807
Messages
2,203,664
Members
79,130
Latest member
Jsawyer09
Back
Top