Top end scopes, wich one?

[Rob01]

Of what you have listed, Schmidt and Bender. Period, end of story. There is nothing Asian that can top German glass. That is not to say that you cant "get by" without it, but for the little difference in price why would you want to????
I mean, you can drive your car with your feet if you want to....but that don't make it a good idea.
Are your ancestors from Hanover, Germany????

I have owned multiples of each and yes the Razor II can hang just fine with the S&B. I know some will never believe it and cling to the superiority of everything German but the people who have actually used them both will admit the truth.

As to "why would you want to"?
The glass is a push between the S&B and Razor. I put them up next to each other and let multiple people look through them on different days and they couldn't tell the difference. Both track perfectly, which is the most important thing in a scope as it's not a telescope but a mechanical tool. The Razor II has better knobs that, like the S&B, are locking, audible and tactile clicks and, unlike the 14 mil S&B, nice spacing on the 10 mil per turn and also offers the clickless zeroing for a perfect zero. No more having to be a little off. Better usable reticles in the Razor with the 2C working great for long range with it's useful but not cluttered Christmas tree in the lower quadrants, small open center and line thickness of .03 mils so doesn't cover a lot of the target and the illumination illuminates the whole reticle. It's a more useful reticle than the P4F, H2CMR or Klein. Also the illumination location is better as it's right off the parallax and not up on the tube where left hand shooters sometimes have issues with bolt contact. Both have plenty of elevation but the Razor II has about an extra 18 MOA of elevation.

The only thing that I like better about the S&B is the 10 meter parallax but not enough to put it over the Razor II which adjusts down to 32 yards.

The Razor does weigh about 10 ounces more than the S&B but once mounted the weight isn't felt on the rifle.

The Razor obviously has a better warranty with the Vortex VIP warranty, which not only covers and mechanical scope issues, which the Razors have had very few, but also accidental damage like dropping the scope, accidentally running it over with a truck or having it caught in a house fire. That is nice peace of mind.

 

[Tesoro]

Why doesnt the Swaro X5 get mentioned?

 

[swd]

I have 2 NF ATAC-R 5x25 sfp. The glass is simply outstanding. They are heavy if that's a concern. The MOAR and MOAR-T are both excellent reticles.

 

[msinc]

Why doesnt the Swaro X5 get mentioned?

Same reason they want to believe that Asian glass is better...because in most cases they cant afford it.
Anything out of reach is either not mentioned or when it is it's blasted as a "push" or equal or not quite as good. I see a lot of Asian glass manufacturers telling their potential customers that "the difference in European glass and ours is so slight that there is no way a shooter can see it."
All that said, and in all fairness to the cheaper glass, for broad daylight target shooting it works fine...but take it out just before dark and you will have no trouble seeing the difference very quickly.
I have literally owned them all...I have several target/fun rifles that have Leupold Mark4 M1's, a Night Force and even a Premier Heritage on one, and they work perfectly for targets in sunlight, but it's Zeiss and Leica for my hunting rifles. I know it's not what we are talking about here, but the others are not even close at dark.

 

[Tesoro]

Same reason they want to believe that Asian glass is better...because in most cases they cant afford it.
Anything out of reach is either not mentioned or when it is it's blasted as a "push" or equal or not quite as good. I see a lot of Asian glass manufacturers telling their potential customers that "the difference in European glass and ours is so slight that there is no way a shooter can see it."
All that said, and in all fairness to the cheaper glass, for broad daylight target shooting it works fine...but take it out just before dark and you will have no trouble seeing the difference very quickly.
I have literally owned them all...I have several target/fun rifles that have Leupold Mark4 M1's, a Night Force and even a Premier Heritage on one, and they work perfectly for targets in sunlight, but it's Zeiss and Leica for my hunting rifles. I know it's not what we are talking about here, but the others are not even close at dark.

Glass quality aside i dont understand why the swaro x5 dosent get the attention it deserves. They built all new machinery that has like a 2 micron tolerance to make that scope. If you can imagine that being on the gears. It is state of the art and is their long range entrant into the game but with bad marketing. I have 2 and in bright sunlight i have to use my sunglasses as the white paper is too bright. But i hunt n shoot mainly varmints so i use the glass for low light situations. Seems like the swaro x5 would be tits for the prs shooters also. It does everything the nightforce will do mechanically but with better glass. But it might not work as well after you drop your rifle off a canyon walll hah.But that hasnt been proven either. All i am saying is that it is a contender that dosent get its rightful promotion. And if you mash your swaro abd send it in you will get a new one.

 

[Gman]

Of what you have listed, Schmidt and Bender. Period, end of story. There is nothing Asian that can top German glass. That is not to say that you cant "get by" without it, but for the little difference in price why would you want to????
I mean, you can drive your car with your feet if you want to....but that don't make it a good idea.
Are your ancestors from Hanover, Germany????

Same reason they want to believe that Asian glass is better...because in most cases they cant afford it.
Anything out of reach is either not mentioned or when it is it's blasted as a "push" or equal or not quite as good. I see a lot of Asian glass manufacturers telling their potential customers that "the difference in European glass and ours is so slight that there is no way a shooter can see it."
All that said, and in all fairness to the cheaper glass, for broad daylight target shooting it works fine...but take it out just before dark and you will have no trouble seeing the difference very quickly.
I have literally owned them all...I have several target/fun rifles that have Leupold Mark4 M1's, a Night Force and even a Premier Heritage on one, and they work perfectly for targets in sunlight, but it's Zeiss and Leica for my hunting rifles. I know it's not what we are talking about here, but the others are not even close at dark.

Here are 2 hunting scopes that I own(ed). A Zeiss Conquest 3.5-10x 44mm (German glass) and it was totaly inferior to my Burris Signature Select 3-10x 40mm (Pentax, Japanese glass). The Zeiss wasn't as clear, period ! I do realize that the Conquest is the "entry" model for Zeiss, but it assembled in the USA with German parts, and for the price, it should have been better than the Burris Signature Select. But it wasn't. As was stated before, European glass WAS the top dog. But that is very debatable today.

 

[dkhunt14]

Here are 2 hunting scopes that I own(ed). A Zeiss Conquest 3.5-10x 44mm (German glass) and it was totaly inferior to my Burris Signature Select 3-10x 40mm (Pentax, Japanese glass). The Zeiss wasn't as clear, period ! I do realize that the Conquest is the "entry" model for Zeiss, but it assembled in the USA with German parts, and for the price, it should have been better than the Burris Signature Select. But it wasn't. As was stated before, European glass WAS the top dog. But that is very debatable today.

My eyes have never seen the Zeiss scopes as good as Swarovski or Schmidt and Bender. Everybody's eyes are different. In good light most scopes look good, even cheap ones. Where the good glass prevails is when it is really dark and you are looking into the shadows or hard to see areas. Just like spotting scopes. You can put together a set of Bushnell spacemasters in a bracket for long range hunting. When the light is good they are pretty good for hunting. Now when it gets dark my Kowa Highlanders blow them out the water. I have seen deer at 1300 yards 15 minutes before starting time. When looking through the spacemasters you couldn't see anything. Matt

 

[msinc]

Here are 2 hunting scopes that I own(ed). A Zeiss Conquest 3.5-10x 44mm (German glass) and it was totaly inferior to my Burris Signature Select 3-10x 40mm (Pentax, Japanese glass). The Zeiss wasn't as clear, period ! I do realize that the Conquest is the "entry" model for Zeiss, but it assembled in the USA with German parts, and for the price, it should have been better than the Burris Signature Select. But it wasn't. As was stated before, European glass WAS the top dog. But that is very debatable today.

Well, there's your first mistake....I would'nt consider either of those a "hunting scope". Hunting what??? Woodchucks???? The Conquest line IS NOT German optics, in that it does not have anywhere near the coatings of, for example, a Diavari. Keep telling yourself....."European glass WAS the top dog. But that is very debatable today".....and you might start to believe it, even though you know better....but you wont convince anyone else that owns and uses it. Especially when it's getting dark.
Lets see...Leica or Burris????? Burris or Zeiss Diavari???? Talk about a no-brainer!!!!Good god y'all!!!!!
The bottom line is that you get what you pay for...if you don't need it, then I understand not paying for it. You don't need German glass to shoot at targets in the middle of the day, I get it...but, do you really think I paid over 2K for a scope that is only as good as a $400 Asian because there is no difference?????

 

[Rob01]

Same reason they want to believe that Asian glass is better...because in most cases they cant afford it.
Anything out of reach is either not mentioned or when it is it's blasted as a "push" or equal or not quite as good. I see a lot of Asian glass manufacturers telling their potential customers that "the difference in European glass and ours is so slight that there is no way a shooter can see it."
All that said, and in all fairness to the cheaper glass, for broad daylight target shooting it works fine...but take it out just before dark and you will have no trouble seeing the difference very quickly.
I have literally owned them all...I have several target/fun rifles that have Leupold Mark4 M1's, a Night Force and even a Premier Heritage on one, and they work perfectly for targets in sunlight, but it's Zeiss and Leica for my hunting rifles. I know it's not what we are talking about here, but the others are not even close at dark.

There is your assumption in that most can't afford them. I have owned many scopes as well from SWFAs, NF, Leupolds, Premier, S&B, Vortex Razor IIs and Hensoldts and multiples of them. I also have a lot of experience in optics and I find that there are a lot of scope snobs out there and as many as people who can't afford them and they don't like that something can step up to what they hold as the best. It upsets the status quo. And yes I have used them all in lowlight/night shooting at matches on both static and moving targets and know how they perform in those conditions. This is how I speak from experience when comparing the Razor II to the S&Bs.

And yes I have owned a few S&Bs.

 

[JRS]

Well, there's your first mistake....I would'nt consider either of those a "hunting scope". Hunting what??? Woodchucks???? The Conquest line IS NOT German optics, in that it does not have anywhere near the coatings of, for example, a Diavari. Keep telling yourself....."European glass WAS the top dog. But that is very debatable today".....and you might start to believe it, even though you know better....but you wont convince anyone else that owns and uses it. Especially when it's getting dark.
Lets see...Leica or Burris????? Burris or Zeiss Diavari???? Talk about a no-brainer!!!!Good god y'all!!!!!
The bottom line is that you get what you pay for...if you don't need it, then I understand not paying for it. You don't need German glass to shoot at targets in the middle of the day, I get it...but, do you really think I paid over 2K for a scope that is only as good as a $400 Asian because there is no difference?????

The best Japanese made glass is every bit the equal of the best German made glass, and both produce many different grades of glass.

 

[onelastshot]

I've owned a Schmidt and Bender 5x25x56 for a couple years now. It's a tank and weighs as much as a tank. In terms of glass I've never owned a scope with better glass. They simply set the gold standard that other scopes try to duplicate.

 

[dkhunt14]

I've owned a Schmidt and Bender 5x25x56 for a couple years now. It's a tank and weighs as much as a tank. In terms of glass I've never owned a scope with better glass. They simply set the gold standard that other scopes try to duplicate.

I just bought the PM11 12x50. I looked through the it in pretty much dark conditions and it was impressive. I am thinking of getting a Swarovski X5I 5x25, I looked through one the other week and it was very impressive also. I want to try out there new erector assembly tension and see if they hold POA at long distance. I just got a 6x24x72 Hensoldt and haven't had a chance to try it yet. Matt

 

[Rob01]

The Hensoldts are very nice. Great glass and track perfectly but the thing I don't care for them is the reticle choices. Basically standard mildot and the NH1 has a huge open center which doesn't work for me. The Hensoldt I had had the standard mildot. Not as useful for a lot of reticle use as some of the newer reticles on the market.

 

[JRS]

The Hensoldts are very nice. Great glass and track perfectly but the thing I don't care for them is the reticle choices. Basically standard mildot and the NH1 has a huge open center which doesn't work for me. The Hensoldt I had had the standard mildot. Not as useful for a lot of reticle use as some of the newer reticles on the market.

Hensoldt doesn't offer many reticle options, and, they are primarily military optics.

 

[msinc]

The best Japanese made glass is every bit the equal of the best German made glass, and both produce many different grades of glass.

Just keep telling yourself that and I guarantee sooner or later you will start to believe it.

 

[JRS]

Just keep telling yourself that and I guarantee sooner or later you will start to believe it.

I've believed it for decades, and Japan has been proving it for decades Nightforce, during their early days, used German made glass. Take a wild guess why they use Japanese made glass. A number of European made scopes use glass made in Japan. They are major competitors, and have to offer equal quality to stay competitive. Ohara, in Japan, is the equivalent of Schott, in Germany.

 

[msinc]

Take a wild guess why they use Japanese made glass. A number of European made scopes use glass made in Japan.

That's a no-brainer as well...because it is cheaper and they realize more profit. Honestly, who couldn't correctly guess that???? Sounds like you have accomplished telling yourself enough times...I am glad you believe yourself and I sincerely hope that you stay just like you are.

 

[JRS]

That's a no-brainer as well...because it is cheaper and they realize more profit. Honestly, who couldn't correctly guess that???? Sounds like you have accomplished telling yourself enough times...I am glad you believe yourself and I sincerely hope that you stay just like you are.

High end glass from both countries are not only equal in quality, but also price. The "no brainer" is logistics and quality And…. I will continue to use my Japanese made Canon lenses

 

[Tesoro]

I just bought the PM11 12x50. I looked through the it in pretty much dark conditions and it was impressive. I am thinking of getting a Swarovski X5I 5x25, I looked through one the other week and it was very impressive also. I want to try out there new erector assembly tension and see if they hold POA at long distance. I just got a 6x24x72 Hensoldt and haven't had a chance to try it yet. Matt

You can find a few x5 test reviews on the net done by experienced shooters. They are as good as anything swaro makes if not better. Mine tracks and repeats perfectly. This scope is their entrance into the long range field shooting and distance dialing hunting world. It is sfp.

I think its the most overlooked lr scope on the market. To prove this point not long ago a fellow put a brand new in box 3-18 x5 illuminated for sale on the lrh forum. Had no comments even tho it was priced right. I reluctantly bought it for 2 grand!

Nightforce marketing is as good as their scopes.

Swaro dosent know marketing. Their products sell themselves in their specialty sectors other than obviously lr scopes!. Believe it or not i saw a promo ad somewhere for the x5i and the shooter had his eyes closed in the photo! No s**t!!

I prefer the 3-18 power version as i use my scope in the field. It also has a pile of vertical adjustment compared to 5-25.
The 18x is all i need. there is a house opposite mine on a hillside. I can place my crosshair in the center of a 14" dia driftboat trailer wheel parked on the property. The boat is 1.47 miles away.

Ps the x5 reticle choices are real nice similar to popular nf and vortex ones.

I really miss my 20-15 vision i had when i was under 40. When I look thru a good german scope or bino I feel like I have my old eyes back!

 

[nakneker]

Wow, let the opinions fly. Bottom line is the high end scope market is a shooters dream. No longer limited to a couple brands or configurations we shooters have a smorgasbord of options. I've owned most of the high end brands over the last couple of years and have been impressed by the majority of them. IMO no one brand is hands down better, even slightly better has become debateable as this thread demonstrates very clearly. Personally I'm grateful for the fierce competition to get in our pockets, the products are improving by leaps and bounds. Just look at your options 10 years ago and how they have changed. Currently I'm wanting to get my hands on a March high master, I'm sure in a year something else will come up that sparks attention and down the rabbit hole I'll go.......