Top end scopes, wich one?

[Capt. Oblivious]

Hi Guys, Im sure this has been asked a 100 times but ill ask one more time if you don't mind.

Im in the market for a top "end scope" and currently looking at the following 4 scopes.
Im a LR steel banger and that's what this scope will be used for 85% off the time with the occasional LR hunt and PRS type competition we have over here, for general hunting I have rifles to fill the need. The rifle is a 6SLR and im currently using a Sightron S3 8-32x56 MOA2 on it, yes its a very nice scope with good turrets and nice glass that does everything I need but Its not one off the scopes im looking at now.

My "needs" is a scope that's mechanically as close to 100% as possible , tracks perfectly and if I turn X amount off MOA/MIL the cross moves that amount and very good glass but im sure any off these will do that.

I have never used a MIL/MIL or FFP scope but it seems that's the way to go with these scopes and Im kind off looking forward to learning something new.

The 4 scopes im looking at in the order im currently favoring them:

Schmidt and Bender pmii p4fine CW 5-25x56, FFP MIL/MIL
Vortex Razor HD ebr2c CCW 4.5-27x56, FFP MIL/MIL
Nightforce ATACR 5-25x56 MOAR-T MOA
Nightforce ATACR 5-25x56 MOAR F1 1/4 Digillum PTL, FFP MOA


Price wise I can get the PM11 and Razor for the same price, the F1 Atacr is a little more that those 2 and the 2nd FP Atacr is about 10% less than the other 3.

I have always wanted a PMii and I doubt we will ever see them around here again (don' ask) and ill be able to sell it any day for more than what I pay for it now (so I can think of it as a bit off an investment if anyone asks....)

Do I go with my inner boy and get the PMii or is there anything in the other 3 that should change my mind?

Thanks
Siebert

 

[R.Morehouse]

March has that rock solid adjustment & hold thing that is high on all our list when looking to buy once cry once.....

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

The March is actually a scope I have been looking at for a while and used quite a bit but almost forgot about, a friend of mine is the March dealer/agent over here and had a 2.5-25x52 2FP demo and a new 3-24x52 at a very good price. Choices choices

 

[dkhunt14]

I have a S&B and they have good glass. They will hold impact. It is used by military sniper units world wide. Almost nothing beats the European glass. The Nightforce ACTAR is supposed to have good glass but I never looked through one. If it's as clear as a comp., It would be great. I also hear they are rock solid. It is about the only Nightforce I don't own.

I can't comment on the Vortex because I don't own one and never looked through one. In fact I have never seen one on a 1000 yard BR rifle. Matt

 

[Sniper338]

You kind of up my alley here..

S&B
Steiner
March
Nightforce


Thats my top four in no order.

I tend to lean hard on the steiner 5-25X56 military MSR reticle. Mil/Mil

S&B is of course super nice too. S&B doesnt offer a warrenty anymore. BUT with the quality you usually dont need a warrenty anyways.

Steiner military scopes have a life time warrenty and the glass IS german glass too. They are flawless. I went with steiner military scopes over the S&B for the sole fact of the warrenty. Otherwise they are really close. You pay for the name imo alittle more with S&B.

I like the MSR reticle because its a quick ranging reticle. Helps a ton ranging targets at unknown distances. I shoot steel silahuette targets at long range so its nice to be able to range targets, use the regular reticle, and use the fine cross hair/measuring reticle as well.

The MSR is a many purpose reticle for me. I even dial 2 mil down and left to set the zero on the fine measuring etching to double it as a very fine cross hair for precision target shooting zoomed in at 25X. Many things can be accomplished with this reticle.

S&B has the MSR as well available.

But to sum it up i would look hard at the steiner military too..

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

Thanks Guys, the Steiner is a little harder to source over here but not impossible. A friend of mine that owns Khales, PMii, couple NF and Vortex says once you start using the Vortex turrets you really fall in love with the scope and he says he cant really see allot of diff in glass between the the PM and the Razor. My hart says PM and my head says Razor lol. Ill burn up the internet to read up on the 2 a little more over the weekend and see what happens.

Regards

 

[hogan]

South Africa, eh? Sorry, but can't be involved on either side of that equation.

t

 

[Rob01]

I have owned about 8 S&B scopes and used them in matches since 2006 but now own 3 Razor II scopes and like everything better about them than the S&Bs and sold off the S&Bs. The glass is a push but the Razor II has better knobs, reticles, illumination and more elevation. The only thing that is nicer about the S&B is the 10 meter parallax but not enough to put it over the Razor II. Haven;t owned either NF scope but did own 3 original F1s and a couple NXS and the Razor was a better option than all those.

 

[nakneker]

I've owned the scopes you have listed, you can't go wrong with any of your four. I've had two S&Bs, they are great scopes, they are also pricey. However if you can get one and not lose money or even make money that speaks for itself. Vortex Razors are solid, so are the Nightforce and they hold their value and are easy to resell.

My two favorite scopes in that price range are a Steiner Military FFP mil/mil with the MSR reticle and a March FFP mil/mil.

I've learned that even some of the high dollar scopes are not accurate with their turrets and I test each and every one at 100 yards with MOA or MILS marked out.

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

Thanks for the imput guys, yes im in South Africa. Will sit on it over the weekend and make a decision

 

[loneranger04]

I have a Atacr F1 and owned a sfp Atacr. Both are excellent scopes, excellent glass and turrets. I've owned 2 Gen II razors and they are tanks. Great turrets, great glass, track perfect. Best eyebox of those three scopes. I've never looked through a SB. They are the best buy out there. However I traded my Razor for the Atacr F1 because the reticle on the Razor is too thin for me. Most don't care for the reticle in the F1. I love it. Simple and heavy enough for me to see easily without being too thick. Most of the top PRS shooters use the Razor. That says a lot.

 

[dkhunt14]

I have a Atacr F1 and owned a sfp Atacr. Both are excellent scopes, excellent glass and turrets. I've owned 2 Gen II razors and they are tanks. Great turrets, great glass, track perfect. Best eyebox of those three scopes. I've never looked through a SB. They are the best buy out there. However I traded my Razor for the Atacr F1 because the reticle on the Razor is too thin for me. Most don't care for the reticle in the F1. I love it. Simple and heavy enough for me to see easily without being too thick. Most of the top PRS shooters use the Razor. That says a lot.

It says they sponsor the event and give shooters a break. I have never seen one on a BR rifle where the ultimate of accuracy is required. I see hundreds of short range BR rifles and hundeds of 1000 yard BR rifles every year. If you dont shoot the shots on paper you would never notice slight point of aim shifts. Matt

 

[Rob01]

The Razor II is not a benchrest scope. It's a FFP scope for use like PRS as the OP was asking That said I have used it to shoot groups as well and there is no shift in POA/POI. It's a solid optic. That is why people use it. Not sponsorship. It works very well for the game and comes in under the others in cost.

 

[6and7mm]

Isn't the S&B 5-25x56 the scope every other is trying to mimic, in regards to the 5-25x56. Their warranty in USA is a transferable 20 year limited. They have more mil reticles to choose from than any other brand. Everyone seems to be most impressed with S&B glass and repeatable adjustments. The only thing folks seem to complain about is the price; but they dropped the retail price in USA by about 15%.

 

[Rob01]

Yes the S&B used to be the gold standard and was ahead of many others but now the margin has closed quite a bit and they have been passed by some. They have a couple good reticle win the H2CMR and P4F but so do other makers now. Not just the standard mildots of years back. That is why I always kept my S&B scopes as I used them to test others against but when I found the Razor II I found a scope that gave me the great glass and repeatability of the S&B but with other features I liked much better.

 

[dkhunt14]

The Razor II is not a benchrest scope. It's a FFP scope for use like PRS as the OP was asking That said I have used it to shoot groups as well and there is no shift in POA/POI. It's a solid optic. That is why people use it. Not sponsorship. It works very well for the game and comes in under the others in cost.

You seem to misunderstand my post. Bench rest guys buy everything available and test them. I even know guys that buy two or three of everything. For some money is not a problem. Good scopes show up at matches. When you got a Nationals and the best shooters in the country are there, you can be guaranteed they bring there best. When you have a hundred plus shooters, it doesn't take long to see what works and what is being used. In short range a POA shift of a few thousandths will cause you to lose. Most people don't have good enough guns or loading to even see that. Look at how close the top 20 aggregates are after Five 5 shot groups. Sometimes it is a few thousandths. It's pretty much the same at 600 and 1000 yard BR. Matt

 

[msinc]

Of what you have listed, Schmidt and Bender. Period, end of story. There is nothing Asian that can top German glass. That is not to say that you cant "get by" without it, but for the little difference in price why would you want to????
I mean, you can drive your car with your feet if you want to....but that don't make it a good idea.
Are your ancestors from Hanover, Germany????

 

[johnfred1965]

S&B, if you have the means, I highly recommend them.
(my apologies to Ferris Bueller)

 

[JRS]

Of what you have listed, Schmidt and Bender. Period, end of story. There is nothing Asian that can top German glass. That is not to say that you cant "get by" without it, but for the little difference in price why would you want to????
I mean, you can drive your car with your feet if you want to....but that don't make it a good idea.
Are your ancestors from Hanover, Germany????

"There is nothing Asian that can top German glass". That right there is funny

 

[Rob01]

You seem to misunderstand my post. Bench rest guys buy everything available and test them. I even know guys that buy two or three of everything. For some money is not a problem. Good scopes show up at matches. When you got a Nationals and the best shooters in the country are there, you can be guaranteed they bring there best. When you have a hundred plus shooters, it doesn't take long to see what works and what is being used. In short range a POA shift of a few thousandths will cause you to lose. Most people don't have good enough guns or loading to even see that. Look at how close the top 20 aggregates are after Five 5 shot groups. Sometimes it is a few thousandths. It's pretty much the same at 600 and 1000 yard BR. Matt

Your post seemed to imply that the Razor wasn't a good scope because it wasn't on a benchrest rifle. It's not built to be one. I would be very surprised if a BR guy had a Razor II. I understand the BR super anal mindset and how they are and what they need but it doesn't have anything to do with the OPs needs or the scopes mentioned for steel, PRS comps and hunting. That was my point. The Razor II does what the OP needs to do very well.