TOO many variables with my 6 BR-AI ???

[BartsBullets]

Well, the match has come and gone and let me congratulate Jeff Turner as SOTY. I needed a minimum of 187/5X to catch and pass Jeff. I shot a 185/4X and lost by 0.34 points (average of 6 best targets). I shot the 6 BRA with 105 gr. Bart Infinity and 30.6 gr. of H4895. The conditions were not suited for high scores...it was in the mid-twenty degree range when the sun came up. Also, there was bright sunshine and this produced some horrendous mirage by the 3rd match. I started well with a 49/2X on the first target, and did okay on the 2nd with a 47/1X. I was leading and feeling fairly well about my chances.....but the opera ain't over till the fat lady sings. By the 3rd match the mirage made even seeing the strikes on the gong difficult. I dropped 6 points and got no x's. Now I was up against the wall. Upon examining the 3rd target, I noticed too much vertical. I turned the tuner out one mark (~.001) and planned to shoot a 3-shot group on the gong to see if that helped. I could not clearly see the results on the gong and decided to try with that setting. I shot a VERY vertical group with a 45/1X score and my hopes were dashed.

I have just about decided that I am not smart enough to change tuner settings during a match. I am going to test my new 6 BRA w/out tuner and see what the groups look like. I may shoot the next match sans tuner....we'll see. James

Dammit James!

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Cut it down to 28"

 

[jamesdmock]

Being a simple man (or maybe simple-minded), I have made tuning the 6 BR-AI more complicated than it should be. First, let me thank those who have been very helpful via this forum..... Bart Sauter, Alex Wheeler, Tom Mousel, Mike Ezell, Tim Claunch, and Jim O'Hara. Saturday is our final match of the season, and I have been struggling to get that perfect load. To add to my frustrations, last Sunday, I got the flu.

I have shot a Dasher since 2009 and have done fairly well with it, but I decided to give the BR-AI a try. Mine is a 30" barrel with a Ezell tuner. My early practice sessions featured several bullets, powders, and charges were varied and seating depth was all over the place. I had too many variables and a helter skelter method of finding the right load.

With the big match coming up Saturday, I decided to get serious. I had mostly shot the hotter loads of Varget and H4895 and shot mostly Bart's bullets (103's, 105 Infinities, and 105 Gungnirs). After seeing that Alex stated that many had found that a good node with 30.6 grains of H4895, I decided to give that a try. I first tried this charge with the 105 Infinity seated just off the lands and loaded them with Federal 205 primers. I have a 100 yard range at my house so I put on my heavy coat (still have a touch of flu) and shot a three group with the tuner set for the last load I tested. This first group was a triangular group that was a large .2xx. Okay but not great. Maybe I would have to go with this load???

Since this was with a cold, clean barrel, I decided to shoot another. For this group I moved the tuner out 1 mark (~.001") and also dialed in 11.25 MOA elevation in the scope (the amount needed to get from 100 to 600 yards). EUREKA ! This group was a zero and I quit. With only 6 rounds on the barrel, I don't believe that I will clean it before Saturday's match. Good shooting....James

PS- Sometimes we waste components trying to save them by taking short cuts in the tuning process.

Let me correct the record. Yesterday, I was so cold that I didn't go to the target and measure the "zero" group, but through the scope it certainly appeared to be a zero. After some warming today, I went down to the target and measured the group and it had a little "wing" that caused it to measure ~0.140". This is still a great group for a 105 VLD bullet, but I wanted to correct the record. I have been a skeptic of many claimed 'zeroes" in the past and I didn't want to be a maker of false claims. Good shooting....James

Well, the match has come and gone and let me congratulate Jeff Turner as SOTY. I needed a minimum of 187/5X to catch and pass Jeff. I shot a 185/4X and lost by 0.34 points (average of 6 best targets). I shot the 6 BRA with 105 gr. Bart Infinity and 30.6 gr. of H4895. The conditions were not suited for high scores...it was in the mid-twenty degree range when the sun came up. Also, there was bright sunshine and this produced some horrendous mirage by the 3rd match. I started well with a 49/2X on the first target, and did okay on the 2nd with a 47/1X. I was leading and feeling fairly well about my chances.....but the opera ain't over till the fat lady sings. By the 3rd match the mirage made even seeing the strikes on the gong difficult. I dropped 6 points and got no x's. Now I was up against the wall. Upon examining the 3rd target, I noticed too much vertical. I turned the tuner out one mark (~.001) and planned to shoot a 3-shot group on the gong to see if that helped. I could not clearly see the results on the gong and decided to try with that setting. I shot a VERY vertical group with a 45/1X score and my hopes were dashed.

I have just about decided that I am not smart enough to change tuner settings during a match. I am going to test my new 6 BRA w/out tuner and see what the groups look like. I may shoot the next match sans tuner....we'll see. James

Well, after making a mess of the match last Sat., I have started over. The first thing that I corrected was the tuner. While cleaning it I discovered that the o-ring that suppose to ride on the barrel to give support to the rear of the tuner was not touching and I replaced it one that supported the tuner.

Today (12/20/17) was not ideal for testing because it was unseasonably warm and windy. The wind was from left to right at 11 to 14 MPH and variable. I decided to shoot and went to my friend's 200 yard range with preloaded rounds. These included those that I shot Sat. Today, I started with the load from the match.... 30.6 gr. of H4895 and Bart's 105 Infinity. it shot a 3-shot group that measured 0.161" ; next I shot 31.7 gr. of RE 15 behind Bart's 105 Gungnirs (jumped ~ .020) = .504" ; 3rd was the same charge of Re 15 but the Gungnirs were seated to just touch the lands = .412" ; next, I bumped the charge to 32.0 gr. of Re !5 and had the Gungnirs jumping ~ .020 = .836" (I got caught with a gust of wind that may have enlarged this group); my 5th group was with a fairly hot load of 32.2 gr. Re 15 and the Gungnirs seated ~ .005 into the lands = .205". My last group of the day featured 31.5 gr. of Varget and the Gungnirs jumped about .030. This load produced a 2 &1 vertical group that measured .607".

 

[Curious]

The randomness of your load development is giving me a headache

 

[jamesdmock]

The randomness of your load development is giving me a headache

Today I was testing Re 15. However, I had some left over rounds from the match and used them as a control group. Other than those leftovers I tested 31.7, 32, and 32.2 gr. of Re 15 and did so with .005 into lands, just touching lands, Jumping .020. My best group of the day was with a "leftover" round. This was NOT my first outing with this barrel and I had a pretty good idea of where to start. If you really want a headache, come and shoot against it at our 600 yard match (3rd Sat. of each month at Pioneer, LA). Just kidding....James

 

[R.Morehouse]

My new plan when they don't shoot my pet load......


View attachment 1029538 Tom

If you are going to dump that tuner with the barrel i will GLADLY take it off your hands........Ship it on my dime...

Regards
Rick

 

[Jet]

Tom

what is that thing, a sprinkler head?

 

[Stan Taylor]

Those tuners work really good in rimfire

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Those tuners work really good in rimfire

....and they even hold a few records in centerfire, too. I bet that the tuner isn't the problem, but Tom, I have plenty of barrels it will work very well on if you don't want it and if there's a problem with the tuner, of course, I'll take care of it.

They won't fix a bad barrel, which may be what you're saying the problem is, and not to waste time on a so-so barrel. I would agree with that..

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. It may be a barrel that isn't up to par. I assure you that if there's anything wrong with the tuner, I'll make it right but I have to think that it's the same as is on many, many very good shooting rifles until I see it. If you feel that the tuner is at fault, why am I learning of it like this?
I'm just a phone call away.

The design is proven to be very good...it's on too many record holding and match winning rifles, but if there's a workmanship problem, I'll definitely stand behind my work as well as share lots of good info as to how I recommend using my tuner, if you like.

The tuner pictured is a proven design in both short range and long range..as well as rimfire and even air rifle.

Just trying to be of help. If you feel there's a problem with anything I make, please call me first. I'm happy to be of help. I can see that the set screws aren't run in to recommended depth, just from the picture. Is that how you were shooting it or were they left loose, just for that picture?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Tom

what is that thing, a sprinkler head?

Depends on how it's used, really. If I can be of help, I'm happy to do so.

 

[Stan Taylor]

....and they even hold a few records in centerfire, too. I bet that the tuner isn't the problem, but Tom, I have plenty of barrels it will work very well on if you don't want it and if there's a problem with the tuner, of course, I'll take care of it.

They won't fix a bad barrel, which may be what you're saying the problem is, and not to waste time on a so-so barrel. I would agree with that..

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. It may be a barrel that isn't up to par. I assure you that if there's anything wrong with the tuner, I'll make it right but I have to think that it's the same as is on many, many very good shooting rifles until I see it. If you feel that the tuner is at fault, why am I learning of it like this?
I'm just a phone call away.

The design is proven to be very good...it's on too many record holding and match winning rifles, but if there's a workmanship problem, I'll definitely stand behind my work as well as share lots of good info as to how I recommend using my tuner, if you like.

The tuner pictured is a proven design in both short range and long range..as well as rimfire and even air rifle.

Just trying to be of help. If you feel there's a problem with anything I make, please call me first. I'm happy to be of help. I can see that the set screws aren't run in to recommended depth, just from the picture. Is that how you were shooting it or were they left loose, just for that picture?

Gunsmithing I think you got me confused with someone else I said I heard rimfires shoot real well I personally don't use one an don't have a need for one but thanks anyway

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Gunsmithing I think you got me confused with someone else I said I heard rimfires shoot real well I personally don't use one an don't have a need for one but thanks anyway

Sorry Stan...Just quoting your post about how well that tuner works on rim fires, as well. There is a cf as well as a rf version of that tuner. They work equally well.

The rest of the post was to Tom.

 

[22DASHER]

In Tom’s defense I don’t think he was throwing smoke at anyone’s product. I just don’t think he has had the best of luck with tuners. After all if he has a record setting method of tuning loads without a tuner, why would he switch?.... I sure wouldn’t.

 

[Stan Taylor]

Sorry Stan...Just quoting your post about how well that tuner works on rim fires, as well. There is a cf as well as a rf version of that tuner. They work equally well.

The rest of the post was to Tom.

Yes I have heard they work real good ain't smart enough to run one lol

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Ah, the age old tuner debate. It will never end....

 

[Curious]

Tom,

Could the inconsistency not be coming form somewhere else?

Having proven the load twice both with and without the tuner should you not have given the barrel more of a chance?

I agree wasting time on a 'so so' barrel isn't wise but what level of testing is required to determine 'so so' I wonder?

Also, what percentage of barrels by your standard do you find to be 'good enough to use' versus 'so so'?

 

[dmoran]

@tom
Stop being stubborn: take that barrel out of the trash, and take it to 100yds with 2-shot groups.
Tune the ES to under 5, then tune the tuner, and "presto"... it will be good to go at 1000 !.!.!

But if for some odd damn reason it still might not cut it at DCR-1000, it can be your dedicated GONG barrel, where that method has 100% proven out.
Donovan

 

[Northridge]

The tuner was just fine, it's just the only photo I had of a barrel in the garbage can. It was just supposed to be a humorous post. When the setting was on, it shot just as small (or at least splitting hairs) as without. That barrel is just one of those "hero on Friday" barrels.

Here's some powder ladders with and without the tuner.....

View attachment 1029569

View attachment 1029570


Tom



Edit/add

So I take the "without" and do the exact same thing on Friday morning of the next match, to see if it stayed between red and green. And as seen below, it is spot on 3 weeks later..... Saturday rolls around, temp, humidity, baro are identical and it shoots like ass! That's why the photo op!!!

View attachment 1029571

Red gun gets my vote Lol... that's the result I'm looking for.. tom you have two red guns was this the diving board or your non diving board?

Shawn Williams

 

[Stan Taylor]

Diving board red gun. Then I put the barrel on another platform to be sure it was a moody little bitch lol.

Tom

Tom
I tried to look at your ladder I assume this is a 1000yd what is the shortest that I can perform a ladder that's readible I can't do one at a 1000yds

 

[Stan Taylor]

I'll tell you when I know the answer lol. Next year, when the snow goes off, I want to put paper at 100-300, and paper at 1k. Then I'll do one of my traditional ladders at 1k, and follow it by shooting one of each on a "level line" at one or all of the closer targets. This should allow me to correlate the distances if done within a few minutes of one another. If I see something that is obvious, I'll tell you, but you have to keep it secret!

Tom

Keep me posted in the meantime I will try to do at 300 an see what it does..PS you can keep that blasted snow lol