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To use the Expander ball or not.........that is the question

Killshot

X's matter....but 10s win (but damn, Xs feel good)
Began loading a year ago. Using Redding S Full Length Bushing dies.
Had some problems with insufficient neck tension and was advised to replace the expander ball with the decapping pin retainer. Any cases found to have any out-of-round mouths get straightened with a taper before resizing. Have had good performance so far.

I'm about to add annealing to my routine (after each firing) so work-hardening should not be an issue.
I measure runout, it's consistently under .002.

But I'm wondering, how many omit the expander from their sizing process?
Am I leaving anything on the table by not expanding?
 
Killshot said:
Began loading a year ago. Using Redding S Full Length Bushing dies.
Had some problems with insufficient neck tension and was advised to replace the expander ball with the decapping pin retainer. But I'm wondering, how many omit the expander from their sizing process?

Using the Expander Ball in conjunction with a Bushing Die is a dichotomy.

It completely defeats the purpose of a bushing which is to squeeze down the case neck to impart a predetermined amount of tension on the bullet. To run an expander ball back up through the neck undoes what you've just tried to accomplish.

I normally use custom made bushing dies from Harrell's: http://harrellsprec.com/index.php?crn=207&rn=384&action=show_detail that do not come with a ball attached. With the Redding Type S, the first thing that I do is to detach and then discard the ball, in the trash can, never to be seen or heard from again.
 
This subject has been thrashed before. I will give a straight and totally unqualified "It depends!". I would suggest there are two factors to consider:

1. How much are you expanding the neck with the expander ball? Measure before and after to see. If you are expanding it a few thou then yes, it could be causing some runout of the neck. On the other hand if you only expand it a small fraction of one thou then it really cannot be causing any measurable runout.

2. Where is the expander ball located in the die? Forster locate their expander ball right at the shoulder, and claim if properly located the brass is still in the neck of the die while when the ball enters the neck, to minimize any sizing runout. Other die manufacturers locate the ball down near the base and size when the neck is unsupported, and induced runout may be higher.

In my thinking the ID consistency is more important than the OD, so there is some merit in using an expander ball to just kiss the neck ID if it does not cause neck runout. For that reason I use one. But, this is in a Forster die, with the ball located high near the neck, and it only opens the neck up 0.0003". To do this is not as simple as it sounds. You have to use a maximum sized bushing to minimize the sizing down of the neck, and then a special oversized expander ball that just kisses the neck ID to uniform it out. So as I said, "It depends!".
 
Ron makes some good points about expander position.
Just like to add that there is no rule written that states the expander must be left where the factory places it.
I use RCBS dies, pulled the decap pin, rasied the expander and added an O-ring to the stem. Runout is consistantly under .002.

,,must add I'm loading for factory hunters. Bench loaders/custom have and need different techniques.
 
Outdoorsman said:
Using the Expander Ball in conjunction with a Bushing Die is a dichotomy.

It completely defeats the purpose of a bushing which is to squeeze down the case neck to impart a predetermined amount of tension on the bullet. To run an expander ball back up through the neck undoes what you've just tried to accomplish.

This is precisely what I was advised, by a Redding tech.
 
Sometimes shooters use S dies with brass that is not neck turned. In those cases, using a bushing size such that you can just feel the expander may be better than using the decapping pin retainer. As far as the inherent evil, or self defeating issue goes, some time back I had a conversation with a well known figure in the 1,000 yd. benchrest world. He told me that he has a set of expander mandrels that are graduated in half thousandths, and that the last step in his sizing process, after FL sizing with a bushing die (Yes, the necks are fully turned.) is to very slightly expand the necks with which ever mandrel he thinks is appropriate. He told me that it is his opinion that he gets better results with this added step. As far as advice from die manufacturers goes, I would have to know at what level a tech was participating in our sport, before I would consider his advice the last word on the subject. In my own experiments, with light expander ball contact, there was no loss of case straightness as long as the expander ball pull was kept low.
 
Boyd, thank you.
I concur that tapered mandrels of the type you describe, "matched" to the bushing used, would be beneficial.
As would being able to adjust the ball height on the decapping stem. I'm keeping it simple.

I posted here specifically to get the thoughts of like-minded competitors. I'm loading for F-class.
 
Killshot...
If you pull out the operating instructions that came with your Type S Bushing Style Full Length Sizing Die and reread it from end to end you'll see that nowhere does it advise using the expander ball attached to the decapping rod nor is it even mentioned anywhere in the text. I would suspect that there was a reason for it's total omission but it's probably going to take a call to find out why. It does say in the Introduction that "Concentricity is enhanced by sizing case necks as little as possible and the ability of the bushing to self-center on the case neck."

Source: Redding Reloading Equipment Operating Instructions
 
Outdoorsman,
That's pretty much the story I got from Redding Tech.
They didn't have a good answer when I asked why they include them in the set. ???
They ship with the ball installed on the stem. The user must replace it with the retaining cap.

As mentioned in the opener, I've not used the expander and have good reults.
Just wondering if anyone out there found a benefit to them. Apparently not. ;)
 
Killshot said:
They didn't have a good answer when I asked why they include them in the set.

Maybe because some customers expect them to include one, as with other brands of dies?

Those who are experienced enough to know why they chose an S die in the first place, upon first opening the die packaging take the thing off then replace it with the retaining cap included.
 
Because the OP didn't say for what cartridge/chamber, if it's a stock gun, I don't believe in a bushing die for a factory chamber, unless you do a chamber cast, and make your brass from a "larger" case, so you have enough neck to turn to fit. Otherwise it's a crap shoot with regards to consistent neck thickness vs generous chamber dimensions, not counting the inability to size most all of the neck for a hunting gun.

If you turn necks for the consistency, there should be no reason to use an expander ball. Although I don't have an issue using them when called for, when attention to details are followed. I've shot some pretty fancy groups at 1000 yards using just a RCBS two die set, expander ball and all.....
 
I have been having issues using a Redding bushing die (neck size only) in my .22-250. I was given advice by a tech at Redding and he said order a bushing that was .001-.002 under the size of a loaded round if you do not use the expander ball and .005 less than a loaded case if you used the expander. I started out using the first method only to have concentricity issues. Called Redding and it was determined I had too much neck tension. Using the expander ball solved the problem so now I am reverting back to use the expander and I am really wondering what is going on. My bushing is .003 smaller than the loaded round. I think the original measurement was with Winchester cases and I'm now using Lapua. Using the present bushing is a disaster without the expander. Any thoughts? What are your bushings relative to loaded rounds?
 
I typically use an expander ball - the aftermarket carbide free-floating *ball*, not the stock fixed one. I select the bushing size so that the ball just 'kisses' the inside of the neck on the outside - about 2 thou under loaded round diameter, which gives me pretty consistent neck tension. Between some guns having strong ejectors (for a reason) that may slightly dent the case mouth, or an ejected round occasionally hitting a concrete firing line... I prefer to have something in there that will make sure the mouth is round, with out having to run separate step with a mandrel.

Works well enough for me.
 
memilanuk said:
Between some guns having strong ejectors (for a reason) that may slightly dent the case mouth, or an ejected round occasionally hitting a concrete firing line...

A simple cure, which I have performed on all my benchrest rifles, is to trim the ejector spring.

Usually a couple of coils is all that's need to keep brass on the bench. Start with trimming one complete coil, then 1/2 at a time to the point where you're satisfied with the distance you want the case ejected.

Saves a lot of thinly turned necks from getting dinged up. I have them fall onto a very small [17" X 24"] short napped throw rug I purchased at Bed, Bath and Beyond.
 
...and not everyone is shooting off a bench.

I have guns that I've neutered the ejectors on, for various reasons, from AR-15s to bolt guns. Well aware of how to do that, thanks ;)

Some guns I can afford to disable the ejector entirely and just pick the case out by hand, some (many) I tune the spring so it ejects into my hand as I stroke the bolt back, and some need to run with the ejector at full strength and spitting them out vigorously. ARs I usually tune to toss the brass @ 1-2 o'clock rather than pinging them off the head of the competitor next to me (NRA Service Rifle or Match Rifle)

Using a bushing die with a properly selected bushing and a polished floating carbide ball that just kisses the inside of the neck works with pretty much all of the above, and doesn't stretch the necks, mess with headspace, cause concentricity problems, or any of the other ills associated with using a stock expander and oft repeated by folks that have never tried this setup.

YMMV,

Monte
 
I would venture to say they include the expander ball for cases that are dinged or out of round if you don't have an expander mandrel. Then you can go back and hit them with the ball off and bushing installed.
 
BoydAllen said:
If one gets the desired neck tension, with the ball, and there are no concentricity issues, then what is the advantage of using two steps instead of one?
Possibly there is a disadvantage? I use Redding FLS and bushes. All of my cases form donuts. This makes sense to me as the bush doesn't size all of the way down the neck. While I like the idea of sizing the ID, I expect I would be asking for trouble trying to do this with a donut forming or formed? Unless there was some other compelling reason to remove the donut (I shoot BTs so no problem there), ID sizing with a bushing die doesn't seem to have any merit for the effort?
 
When using unturned domestic brass (which tends to be of lower quality than the best of the imported), differences in average neck thickness can translate into differences in neck tension, and thickness eccentricities around a given neck will produce a proportionately out of round ID. With a good chamber to FL die fit, and close attention to shoulder bump, brass used in a game rifle may not have the issue with doughnuts that are can be common in other applications, where brass sees a higher average number of reloadings. Set up properly, the pull of the expander is barely detectable, and so far, there has not been a problem.
 
Using a bushing die with a properly selected bushing and a polished floating carbide ball that just kisses the inside of the neck works with pretty much all of the above, and doesn't stretch the necks, mess with headspace, cause concentricity problems, or any of the other ills associated with using a stock expander and oft repeated by folks that have never tried this setup.
I agree with Milanuk in using an expander exactly as he describes. Insures a perfectly round neck, free from dings, and does nothing to pull it out of shape or concentricity.
 

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