To nitride or to not nitride?

[Punxsy Guy]

Here sometime this winter I want to get a barrel nitride. Right now i just finished bedding my action into the stock. I will go shoot it here some to see if the precision and accuracy improved at all. The barrel was doing 3/4 to 1 moa.


By the time fall is done i will have around 500 rounds through it i say. It is 300 win mag with Remington action and Remington barrel still on it.


This is the question i was getting at. Should I get the Remington barrel nitrided or do you think i should just buy a better barrel/new one? I would then get the new barrel nitrided after its been machine/chambered.

 

[JRS]

Don't waste your money on the factory barrel.

 

[JBT47]

Monumental waste of money on a factory barrel. In my opinion, the last thing I would want to do is increase the life of a mediocre shooting factory rifle. Shoot that barrel out then replace with a top quality custom barrel.

 

[Punxsy Guy]

Have any of you guys had experience with nitrided barrels?

 

[Matt Pitchon]

Many previous threads on this topic. Some like it some dont. I nitride my barrels.. The biggest issue for most is the lot charge. Most charge a $200 minimum, although the cost per barrel is about $60. Hard to get 3 to 4 barrels that need nitriding. Nitriding doesn't hurt accuracy, and for most improves barrel life.

 

[MontanaCreedmoor]

+1 on JBT and JRS.

You are interested in accuracy otherwise you would not be in this forum. Bit the bullet ... get a proper barrel and watch your accuracy increase and your groups drop in half. You will not look back. factory barrels are factory barrels.... they will not be match quality.

Only additional thought to JBT’s post above........ I say .... “ Don’t shoot Out that factory barrel”. Instead .... GO get a proper barrel and shoot it ... you will be happier ... and will be shooting better. Life is too short to shoot factory barrels.

 

[Breakshunter]

I stopped having stuff nitrited, a couple of the barrels that came back had some of the rifling crack off after not too many rounds, may have been a total fluke, this was about 5 years ago but it scared me off from it.

 

[RW]

I have never had a problem with a nitrided barrel and I love it when I have a action done as they very slick!! RW

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

before doing anything, I would break it in and see how it shoots.
A new one is going to run you between $500 and $700 by time you pull the trigger the first time.

 

[FrankG]

Different things that I’ve learned about the nitriding/melonite treatment of barrels.

1.) The different steels process at different rates. A barrel can be left in to long and basically you end up making the surface brittle. This includes the bore. So barrel life and or accuracy can work against you if this happens. When this happens who eats it? The company that did the treatment? The barrel maker? The gunsmith? You could end up pulling your hair out on even where to start.

2.) If you get the barrel done from what I understand you shouldn’t have anymore then 50 rounds on it or so depending on caliber.

3.) Depending on how nice the chamber reamer cut the the throat (left a rough finish) it could take longer to break the throat in. Again caliber/chamber makes a difference as well.

4.) Some test data I have the treated barrels didn’t shoot as well as the untreated barrel did for approx. the first 1k rounds. This was in .338 Lapua. Yes the treated barrels went approx. 750 rounds longer barrel life wise but it took a 1k rounds before they started shooting better then the untreated barrels from the get go. So what did you gain in terms of accuracy vs. barrel life and ammo and money spent?

5.) Again different places do the treatment differently. We just recently had a batch of receivers and bolts treated by a different company then who we have normally used for the guys in the shop. How ever they did the treatment it wasn’t the same. You barely touch the surface and it scratches etc....doesn’t seem like it’s any better than a blued or cerakote type finish. Something is wrong with the way they did it and we have to talk to them about it.

6.) Based on data that I’ve gotten/talked to one of the ammo makers is that after X amount of rounds (again depending on caliber) the nitriding/melonite treatment gets shot out/worn away and while it is happening it is effecting pressures.

7.) Once the barrel is treated for the most part you are not going to be rechambering it etc...

8.) How the barrel is made the treatment can have a negative effect on bore dimensions.

So to me a lot of variables that can be effected and or come into play. Before you have any work done do your homework and use a reputable shop to do the work.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Scott Harris]

Monumental waste of money on a factory barrel. In my opinion, the last thing I would want to do is increase the life of a mediocre shooting factory rifle. Shoot that barrel out then replace with a top quality custom barrel.

And don't waste your money nitriding a competition barrel....regardless of quality. I did about 10 barrels....

 

[Punxsy Guy]

Different things that I’ve learned about the nitriding/melonite treatment of barrels.

1.) The different steels process at different rates. A barrel can be left in to long and basically you end up making the surface brittle. This includes the bore. So barrel life and or accuracy can work against you if this happens. When this happens who eats it? The company that did the treatment? The barrel maker? The gunsmith? You could end up pulling your hair out on even where to start.

2.) If you get the barrel done from what I understand you shouldn’t have anymore then 50 rounds on it or so depending on caliber.

3.) Depending on how nice the chamber reamer cut the the throat (left a rough finish) it could take longer to break the throat in. Again caliber/chamber makes a difference as well.

4.) Some test data I have the treated barrels didn’t shoot as well as the untreated barrel did for approx. the first 1k rounds. This was in .338 Lapua. Yes the treated barrels went approx. 750 rounds longer barrel life wise but it took a 1k rounds before they started shooting better then the untreated barrels from the get go. So what did you gain in terms of accuracy vs. barrel life and ammo and money spent?

5.) Again different places do the treatment differently. We just recently had a batch of receivers and bolts treated by a different company then who we have normally used for the guys in the shop. How ever they did the treatment it wasn’t the same. You barely touch the surface and it scratches etc....doesn’t seem like it’s any better than a blued or cerakote type finish. Something is wrong with the way they did it and we have to talk to them about it.

6.) Based on data that I’ve gotten/talked to one of the ammo makers is that after X amount of rounds (again depending on caliber) the nitriding/melonite treatment gets shot out/worn away and while it is happening it is effecting pressures.

7.) Once the barrel is treated for the most part you are not going to be rechambering it etc...

8.) How the barrel is made the treatment can have a negative effect on bore dimensions.

So to me a lot of variables that can be effected and or come into play. Before you have any work done do your homework and use a reputable shop to do the work.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

Thank you a lot Frank for all info. From all the info i have been gathering about this. It seems to me that some people like it a lot or they don't. I also am gathering that sometimes you get a good one and sometimes you don't.

I would really like to do a test on what nitriding is better because there is like 3 different kinds of nitriding out there and there is lots of different processes.

You are also right about if its not done the same exact way everytime, thats definitely not going to be good. You are mostly going to have to find a place with beyond great quality care and has a great reputation.

My one friend just had 2 of his barrels nitrided done recently and I waiting to hear back from to see what he thinks about it. I think he said he was charged 100$ a barrel. The gunsmith charged so much for disassembly and assembly of the rifle, but i am not sure on that price. I think my friend said also the barrels got sent to where core shooting sends there barrels to get nitrided. Dont quote me on that part though. I do know that CORE Shoting uses your barrels. So they might have a little bit more info about nitriding.

I dont think nitriding is that popular yet, but the more and more i research this. Its getting popular there thats for sure. I do plan on trying it here this winter sometime when i am done shooting out the factory barrel.

Since you gave me the info i will be sure to get one of your barrels. I will be getting a barrel chambered in 300 win mag. I was thinking of getting a 1:9 twist barrel with 5 grooves, 26" or 28" long. I plan on using 210 to 230gr bullets. If you can give me the thumbs up if you think this good that would be great.

When i find out some info about my friends barrel's, I will let you know.

 

[FrankG]

Thank you a lot Frank for all info. From all the info i have been gathering about this. It seems to me that some people like it a lot or they don't. I also am gathering that sometimes you get a good one and sometimes you don't.

Since you gave me the info i will be sure to get one of your barrels. I will be getting a barrel chambered in 300 win mag. I was thinking of getting a 1:9 twist barrel with 5 grooves, 26" or 28" long. I plan on using 210 to 230gr bullets. If you can give me the thumbs up if you think this good that would be great.

When i find out some info about my friends barrel's, I will let you know.

Your welcome on the info. I shortened up your quote. Here is some other information for you.

I did have a .260 Rem. Barrel done as I kept hearing different things like higher velocity etc....I shot for a base line approx. 28 rounds thru my barrel before sending it out. I had MMI Truetec do mine. When I got it back you have to clean/scrub the bore out. I don’t hear anyone talking about doing that.

The bore comes back with a scale inside of it. I cleaned it for like 3 days with my normal cleaners and kept getting a rust color finish on the patches. So I talked to Joel at MMI. He told me to get some 0000 steel wool and wrap it around a undersize brush. I put oil on the steel wool and basically finished lapped the barrel 50 strokes. Cleaned it out and bore scoped it. Joel says you want the shine back to the bore/get the scale out. After the first 50 strokes I’d say the barrel was only about half cleaned out. So more oil and I stroked it another 50x. That looked like it took out the vast majority of it. Had to repolish the chamber the same way as well.

I put the barrel back on the gun. Point of zero didn’t change, accuracy was a wash and the velocity was the same as my baseline etc...Barrel is no where near being shot out. I’m not shooting the .260 on that gun that much. .308win and 6.5CM are on that rifle as well.

Touch base with Core. If they’re doing it a lot maybe they have more information.

Your .30 cal build....I just did a new F Class Open rifle in the new Hornady .300PRC. No belt on the case and case design to me is a lot better. I can run about a half grain less powder with out the pressure of the WM and get the same or more velocity out of it. My barrel is a 1-9 twist and shooting 225 and 230gr. Bullets @ 2900fps. Gun is a laser beam.

Later, Frank

 

[Raptor]

I believe it might have been on this sight but could not swear to it. But a few years back there was quite a discussion on this very topic. I had just gotten a 260imp. done and was anxious to see how it performed and how long it would last. But back to the topic at hand, there was a gentleman who got involved in the discussion who was a metalurgist and explained that he felt you "Might" gain a little barrel life but he was very doubtful of a lot of the claims that people were throwing around. He explained that the process is designed for "WEAR" where two surfaces come into contact with each other. He went on to explain that "Wear" is not what kills a barrel and as we all know it is "Heat". He said when metal gets to a certain point it will start to melt. Nitriding a barrel is not designed to protect it from heat only wear. He did say that the process "May" take the barrel longer to heat up but once it does it will eat away just like any other steel will. Since the process was only microns thick once you burn through it your just back to barrel steel.
Now, my experience with it. My rifle shot well but nothing special. The one thing it did do was NOT FOUL!!! I could shoot a couple of hundred round through it and it would take two patches and no blue!!! SOooo... I didn't spend much time cleaning it. Then one day the accuracy went to hell. After going through all the crap we do chasing it down I checked the seating depth and found out I had not "Lost" any of my throat I had "Gained" some!!! I found out I had developed a carbon ring from not cleaning it. Now you want to talk about something tough to get out!! You will do it only once!! To make a long story short I pulled the barrel at about 2400 rounds because the throat was showing noticeable wear. Everything else was like new, no fire cracking but since I could not set it back I pulled it. This is about the exact point where I pulled my regular 260 barrels if I didn't set them back but they also looked a lot worse usually with fire cracking. I don't really feel I gained anything and would not do it again. But that is only "My"opinion......

 

[Punxsy Guy]

I believe it might have been on this sight but could not swear to it. But a few years back there was quite a discussion on this very topic. I had just gotten a 260imp. done and was anxious to see how it performed and how long it would last. But back to the topic at hand, there was a gentleman who got involved in the discussion who was a metalurgist and explained that he felt you "Might" gain a little barrel life but he was very doubtful of a lot of the claims that people were throwing around. He explained that the process is designed for "WEAR" where two surfaces come into contact with each other. He went on to explain that "Wear" is not what kills a barrel and as we all know it is "Heat". He said when metal gets to a certain point it will start to melt. Nitriding a barrel is not designed to protect it from heat only wear. He did say that the process "May" take the barrel longer to heat up but once it does it will eat away just like any other steel will. Since the process was only microns thick once you burn through it your just back to barrel steel.
Now, my experience with it. My rifle shot well but nothing special. The one thing it did do was NOT FOUL!!! I could shoot a couple of hundred round through it and it would take two patches and no blue!!! SOooo... I didn't spend much time cleaning it. Then one day the accuracy went to hell. After going through all the crap we do chasing it down I checked the seating depth and found out I had not "Lost" any of my throat I had "Gained" some!!! I found out I had developed a carbon ring from not cleaning it. Now you want to talk about something tough to get out!! You will do it only once!! To make a long story short I pulled the barrel at about 2400 rounds because the throat was showing noticeable wear. Everything else was like new, no fire cracking but since I could not set it back I pulled it. This is about the exact point where I pulled my regular 260 barrels if I didn't set them back but they also looked a lot worse usually with fire cracking. I don't really feel I gained anything and would not do it again. But that is only "My"opinion......

Thank you for your opinion too. I really do appreciate it. This gives out good information to everyone to make decisions and i am myself too. I plan on trying it myself here because i need to figure out if i like it.