• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

To Nitride or not to Nitride

Hi Guys:

I would like to get some real world feed back on Black Nitriding.
Looks like my second 6XC barrel is ready to be replaced (About 1,200 rounds)( The first one lasted 1,500)
I've read articles about black nitride, and how it makes a barrel last longer, easier to clean, etc, etc.
Since I do the bench rest shooting thing, I'm also interested in "accuracy"!! How does the nitride effect that?
Anyone out there who had nitrided a barrel? What was your experience and how did it shoot? Did it last longer? Do anything special before sending it off to be nitrided?

Much Thanks
Regina
 
They last forever but ive never seen one in the winners circle of a short range br match. It takes a barrel that shoots ones and puts it to shooting 3's but in long range you may be better served by it lasting longer. Youll just have to test it for yourself i suppose
 
Melonite is a great surface hardening treatment and is useful for many things. However, after doing 7 barrels, I'm not convinced it extends barrel life at all. I still saw fire-cracking after about the same number of rounds. Your mileage may vary.
 
Regina,
I don't know about nitride, but I do know about Melonite. Probably what you are actually asking about. I've probably had more done than anybody on the forum. No changes in anything, but longevity.
This is from a long time military armor. He has done extensive tests with machine rests and blind test.

Butch

I was the Armorer for the Army Reserve Shooting Team for over a decade so I do have quite a bit of experience with both processes.

As I am sure you know, most G.I. barrels are made from chrome molly steel which is more susceptible to corrosion than stainless steel. Chrome lining is used on G.I. bores both to extend their shooting life and to protect them from corrosion that can be a problem in battlefield conditions where maintenance is sometimes sporadic or insufficient. Chrome lining does a pretty good job of protecting battlefield weapons. One of the objections to chrome lining is that it is thought to decrease accuracy. This seems to be a valid criticism and is backed up by machine rest tests I have conducted of identical barrels (same manufacturer but half chrome lined and half not).

As you are aware most barrel "wear" is in the throat area. So eventually the hot gasses from the burning of the gunpowder will eat thru the chrome lining at the throat. It is rumored that at this point accuracy will plummet but I have not found that to be true. (Or if true, it is overstated or maybe only occurs for that short period when there is both chrome and bare steel in the throat simultaneously - just at the point of initial break thru.) Chrome lined barrels can continue to shoot well for thousands of rounds after the bare barrel steel at the back of the barrel (throat) has been exposed due to erosion of the chrome lining. Another criticism of chrome lining is that it can flake off later in the life of the barrel resulting in poor accuracy. Obviously, this could also cause maintenance problems if the user is depending on the chrome to ward off corrosion and thus is careless in his bore cleaning. If corrosion is allowed to occur pitting will result and that will ruin accuracy for sure.

Barrel pitting was one of the reasons I got involved in Salt Bath Nitriding. I was loosing nearly as many expensive match grade barrels to improper maintenance (causing pitting) as I was to wear out. This was under the relatively benign target shooting conditions. Obviously given the reputation of degraded accuracy, using chrome lining wasn't an option. So for the past couple of years I have been Salt Bath Nitriding all of my match barrels and haven't had a single one exhibit any pitting. During that 2 yr. period shooters have put anywhere from a few hundred rounds to thousands of rounds on said barrels. I don't know how long the coating will persist so at this point I am still evaluating it as a preservative. I don't know what will happen in another year or two when these barrels get more wear on them. Salt Bath Nitriding goes on both inside of the bore and on the outside surface. So, instead of 2 manufacturing steps you have combined them into one. Salt Bath Nitriding doesn't degrade accuracy one iota, unlike chrome lining. This was the first thing that I verified when I began using the process. I broke in a bunch of barrels and then machine rest tested them for group. I recorded and kept the targets, cleaned up the barrels, and sent them to MMi TruTec for the Isonite process. When they came back I reassembled them on the same receivers with the same torque settings, same bolt carrier assemblies, same flash suppressors, etc. Then they were retested with the same ammo lots. NO degradation in accuracy and about a 1% increase in muzzle velocity.

Chrome lined barrels seem to clean up rather easily after a range session. I found the ease of cleaning of Isonite coated barrels to be similar to chrome lined barrels. The Isonite barrels clean up the easiest of any non chrome lined barrels I have ever used. Isonite can be applied to either stainless or chrome molly but the factory needs to know what steel you are sending them because the application process varies a bit. Again, I only have about 2 yr. of cleaning experience with Salt Bath Nitrided barrels. I don't know if the ease of cleaning will continue as the barrels get more rounds on them. Generally speaking, most non coated barrels get harder to clean later in life. Although stainless has a reputation of being corrosion resistant it isn't corrosion proof (I have had plenty of them return pitted) so I coat both my C.M. and my SS barrels. The Isonite on the outside of the stainless barrels cuts reflection down so my shooters like it.

I mentioned flaking of chrome lining inside the bore. Joel Kendrick is my contact at MMi TruTec, the company in Arkansas that does my Salt Bath Nitriding (they call it Isonite). He was mentioning using the Salt Bath Nitriding inside the bore prior to chrome lining it to get a better adhesion. He is currently working with one of the military contractors (maybe F.N., but don't quote me on that) relative to this process. He has given me permission to give out his contact information so I have cc'd him in my reply to you. He can give you the specifics of any testing and evaluation that has been done relative to this process and can give you quotes, etc. should you just be interested in the Isonite by itself as I use it.

One last quick note on chrome lining. Such barrels have the reputation of changing point of impact when heated up. I have found this to be very true. It may be due to the way the different metals (chrome molly and chrome) expand inside the bore. What ever the reason, it does happen and, again, this was verified on a state of the art machine rest. Isonite doesn't exhibit this characteristic.

I am sure you are well aware of some of the things I covered. Lacking specific questions, I just sort of used a shotgun approach which ended up being fairly long. If I left anything unanswered please feel free to get back to me. I have enabled my Spam Blocker to allow your e-mails to come in with out the automated hate responses that Earth Link sends out. I am sure Joel would also be glad to clarify the technical aspects of the Salt Bath Nitriding process. So far I am very pleased with it.

Best of luck!
Carlos

The process is Melonite, but they call it Isonite.
 
I believe the process the OP is referring to is ferritic nitrocarburizing known as meloniting/salt bath nitriding/Isonite Q and known under other tradenames.

Most other nitride processes are done using vapor deposition methods rather than bath process.
 
I have three nitrided barrels, 6.5x47, 26 Nosler, and a .20 Practical. Cleaning them is way easier than with a standard SS barrel and they seem to have a resistance to building up carbon. Don't have a comparison of accuracy before or after as they were nitrided before shooting.
 
I want to thank all you for your information on this subject. For right now will just replace the barrel. (thank goodness for Bullets.com, as they have Bartlein barrels in stock). So... will be up and shooting again by the end of next week.
Later on will order another blank, get it chambered, and then nitrided. Will be interesting to see the difference, after this replacement barrel wears out
Once again thank you all. You too Butch.
Regina
 
I tried it with a 30 degree 260imp. I never shot it before the process so I don't know how well it shot before hand. I had a little over 1800rds through the barrel and had some noticeable throat erosion. It cleaned up in no time and just didn't foul. However I was just using wipe out and not brushing it and I soon had a problem with carbon build up in the throat area. It was a bitch to get out!! I pulled the barrel because typical of every other 260 that I have had it was inconsistent. One day it would shoot great the next day the same load, same conditions and it would throw rounds.

I have stated earlier that I have had a love hate relationship with the 260s. It seems every other one shoots lights out and then I get one that is inconsistent. So I can't say that the process was the problem. I am not sure I would ever have it done again. I feel that you can set your barrel back at 1800 or so and get the same amount of extra rounds out of your barrel as you may gain with the melonite process.

There was quite a discussion as to if it really works for barrels where "Heat" is the problem and not friction. The discussion covered the topic that the process is great for friction but does not do anything to help with the heat that builds up in the throat which causes the erosion in the first place. It was also brought out that once the erosion starts it has no more protection than a stock barrel because the process is only microns thick and he erosion is already eating into the barrel. One gentleman stated he had had several barrels done on high power rifles and seen no improvement in barrel life. SOoooooo... I guess it depends on who you listen to. The reason I tried it was because of an article that I had read on a couple of ARs that were torture tested and the melonited barrel lasted way longer. So maybe it has something to do with the caliber too....
 
Raptor said:
I tried it with a 30 degree 260imp. I never shot it before the process so I don't know how well it shot before hand. I had a little over 1800rds through the barrel and had some noticeable throat erosion. It cleaned up in no time and just didn't foul. However I was just using wipe out and not brushing it and I soon had a problem with carbon build up in the throat area. It was a bitch to get out!! I pulled the barrel because typical of every other 260 that I have had it was inconsistent. One day it would shoot great the next day the same load, same conditions and it would throw rounds.

I have stated earlier that I have had a love hate relationship with the 260s. It seems every other one shoots lights out and then I get one that is inconsistent. So I can't say that the process was the problem. I am not sure I would ever have it done again. I feel that you can set your barrel back at 1800 or so and get the same amount of extra rounds out of your barrel as you may gain with the melonite process.

There was quite a discussion as to if it really works for barrels where "Heat" is the problem and not friction. The discussion covered the topic that the process is great for friction but does not do anything to help with the heat that builds up in the throat which causes the erosion in the first place. It was also brought out that once the erosion starts it has no more protection than a stock barrel because the process is only microns thick and he erosion is already eating into the barrel. One gentleman stated he had had several barrels done on high power rifles and seen no improvement in barrel life. SOoooooo... I guess it depends on who you listen to. The reason I tried it was because of an article that I had read on a couple of ARs that were torture tested and the melonited barrel lasted way longer. So maybe it has something to do with the caliber too....


You don't brush your barrels?
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
166,249
Messages
2,214,781
Members
79,495
Latest member
panam
Back
Top