To flute or not to flute that is the question

[wvuredneck09]

Okay guys, I'm planning my next build and I plan on ordering the barrel very soon since the wait will be 6-9 months from some manufacturers. I want to use this rifle to hunt and may end up building it on a savage action that I have. It will be either a 7mmWSM or a 7-300WSM. The issue is weight, Krieger for whatever reason recommends a minimum. #5 contour which will come in at around 4lbs. However if I flute it they say I need a #5.5 which will come in once again at 4lbs. fluted so I'm not really gaining any weight savings. Would I be gaining anything else here from the fluting? I know that technically I could go with a smaller contour also but I don't want to give up accuracy. I'm really wanting a gun that can shoot sub 3" 500 yard groups. I know a lot of that comes down to the dummy behind the stock but I certainly want the gun to preform Criterion has a savage prefit that would come in at about 3.5 which sounds great but they don't offer a fast enough twist for the 180's let alone the 195's that are on the horizon. The gun will be a long action so that I can load these heavy pills long and maintain my case capacity.

 

[dansig]

going with a heavier fluted barrel gives you 3 things, it's more rigid and will stay on target longer when it heats up.
it will take longer to heat up
it will cool quicker with flutes.

my .308 has a Krieger LV barrel fluted, it takes 25 rounds for it to get to 80F
and it starts to move of target at 140F, that takes almost 100 rounds of continous fire. something I don't do....

 

[tonedaddy]

going with a heavier fluted barrel gives you 3 things, it's more rigid and will stay on target longer when it heats up.
it will take longer to heat up
it will cool quicker with flutes.

my .308 has a Krieger LV barrel fluted, it takes 25 rounds for it to get to 80F
and it starts to move of target at 140F, that takes almost 100 rounds of continous fire. something I don't do....

If this is true why do most of the barrel makers discourage it?

 

[dansig]

If this is true why do most of the barrel makers discourage it?

because having a 10 pound barrel is better than a 7 pound barrel, but fluting the 10 pound barrel so it will be 7 pounds makes it easier to carry without loosing much of the quality of the 10 pound barrel, still being better than the original 7 pound barrel...

when fluting the barrel you will lose some quality from unfluted, but compared to a lighter unfluted barrel you are still ahead..

for the manufacturer it's better to sell the cheaper lighter barrels, they are easier to make and wont last as long, more profit for them..
if everyone would buy HV contour and flute it to save weight then the manufacturer would lose money...

a HV Krieger 308 cal will last 8000 rounds, the Krieger sporter barrel might last 3000 rounds, the price is almost the same, the HV is about double the weight..

that means that for the 8000 rounds they would sell 3 sporter barrels and make $1000, instead of one HV for $330..

 

[jonbearman]

It can and will induce unrecoverable stress in the barrel.It is purely a cosmetic thing.Shilen says if it is fluted,it voids the warranty.There are many articles on the web,google it.It looks cool but why doesnt every benchrest shooter do it?

 

[dansig]

and Krieger offers fluted barrels with warranty...
http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Fluting-c1246-wp3392.htm

Shilen must make bad barrels if they can't be fluted...

 

[LHSmith]

Oh Boy.....where do I start?
Dansig has many points wrong in his posts
#1 ....bbl. makers start with 1.25 round bar stock.....the lighter the contour ...the more time and expense to make
#2.... a # 5.5 contour fluted bbl. is NOT more rigid than a #5 contour unfluted one......unless the flutes are only .015 deep
#3...loosing quality of a bbl by fluting?....yes if done wrong.......unlikely if done correctly
#4.....only practical reason to go to a heavier contour is if you plan on a lot of follow-up shots
#5.....Also depending how a bbl was used and cared for....a lt.bbl. should last as long as a hvy. one

 

[dansig]

Oh Boy.....where do I start?
Dansig has many points wrong in his posts
#1 ....bbl. makers start with 1.25 round bar stock.....the lighter the contour ...the more time and expense to make
#2.... a # 5.5 contour fluted bbl. is NOT more rigid than a #5 contour unfluted one......unless the flutes are only .015 deep

I never mentioned #5.5 contour vs #5 contour
I have #17 contour fluted, it's the same weight as #7 contour unfluted... try telling shooters that the #7 countour is more rigid than the #17 HV contour...

making a #5 contour from 1.25" straight takes about 2 minutes longer than making #17 contour.. and it's fully automatic and the cutoff is recycled so there is no loss of money in production..

 

[LHSmith]

wvredneck.......There is good info on this site if you search "fluting"

dansig........nice try editing your post.....but I an not a machinist....but your "2 minute" time differential begs the question: how does one remove metal that fast from a barrel?...and if you could ...how to do it without creating stress

 

[Bob3700]

Shilen makes button rifled bbls. If you cut the outside dimension of the bbl, it changes the inside dimensions.

Krieger makes cut rifled bbls. When you flute one of Kriegers, you do not change the inside dimensions.

That is one of the main reasons their policies differ.

Fluting is used so that you can start with a heavier contour and end up with the wt. of a lighter contour. That way, the heavier bbl is stiffer (benchresters say more accurate) and takes longer to heat up.

If the fluting is done correctly (light cuts) then there is no impact on accuracy in a cut rifled bbl. A buttoned bbl has to be fluted before the blank is drilled, reamed and rifled. That way it retains its internal dimensions.

Have several fluted bbls, Hart and Shilen and all perform very well.

Bob

 

[Lapua40X]

OK, rather than argue about the merits of the fluted barrel, I'd like to add only two points.
1. Fluted is pretty but the advantages, if there are any, aren't worth the time trouble and expense for a hunting rifle. Hunting rifles may be fired twice in the field at a given game target (if you're lucky) and the first round will be a cold barrel (fouling round) followed by another that is unlikely to follow the first round precisely in its trajectory. A common well made tapered barrel is perfectly fine for hunting.
2. A hunting rifle needs to hit a bulls eye that's about 15 inches in diameter. I understand wanting an accurate rifle but if it holds 5" groups instead of 3" groups at 500 yards it's plenty good enough, IMO, for that purpose.
Incidentally, best of luck on your hunt. I had an extraordinarily wonderful hunt in Wyoming last year and bagged a nice prong horn at 675 yards with a 7mmWSM and I'm looking forward to repeating the experience in 2013.

 

[dansig]

wvredneck.......There is good info on this site if you search "fluting"

dansig........nice try editing your post.....

I have no idea what you mean by that, the time of editing iw written at the bottom of edited post, that shows I have edited no posts after they were answered, I did however edid spelling errors, but that was done within minutes of posting.

 

[wvuredneck09]

I understand there are alot of article/threads already on here but things change with technology and I'm not building a bench gun which is the majority of the threads on here regarding fluting (ie. fluting a 10lb barrel) not a 5lb barrel. I also understand that it is best not to flute a button rifled barrel due to stress issues. Just looking for a civil discussion on the pros and cons in my particular case.

 

[wvuredneck09]

and btw I'll have to disagree on the size of the "bull" on an eastern whitetail IMO if you can't place the shot in 6-8" area at best you have no business pulling the trigger. No sense in taking the chance on wounding an animal.

 

[LHSmith]

dansig.....my apologies...you did not edit info from your post.......the OP questioned which bbl...(a #5 contour vs. a fluted #5.5 contour) to choose. Since they both weigh the same i.e. have the same mass... I simply disagree with your assertion that it's more rigid.

wvredneck......base your choice on the cosmetics in this case.... only time I would consider fluting is if I needed to reduce weight on an existing rifle and it had a cut-rifled barrel....and done by someone who knows how to do it.

 

[Lapua40X]

and btw I'll have to disagree on the size of the "bull" on an eastern whitetail IMO if you can't place the shot in 6-8" area at best you have no business pulling the trigger. No sense in taking the chance on wounding an animal.

OK, I had Elk in mind. Even so, the average whitetail deer should go about 125 - 135 pounds and a clean broadside shot puts the vitals area (lungs, heart) easily at 10".
I agree that if you can't hit that at 500 yards you shouldn't be pulling the trigger but if we expect to hold a 3" group at 500 yards in the hunting field with no allowance for environmental factors I think we're kidding ourselves. Just an opinion that I hoped might give you another perspective in making a rational decision without spending money unnecessarily.

 

[butchlambert]

Lapua 40X and LHSMITH are correct. I'll bet only a handful of people on this forum could tell the difference in the accuracy of a name barrel on a hunting rifle in field conditions. Fluting a barrel will reduce rigidity. When you are hunting or working up loads I don't think you will have any heating problems. A heavy barrel does not mean it is more accurate. Thinner contour barrels take a little more time to build.
Dansig, When you make comments as you did about Shilen not having good barrels because they won't warranty them is ridiculous. If you want credibility on the forum you will have something to back your opinions.

 

[dansig]

Shilen barrels are about as rare in Iceland as snow in Sahara... we do like Krieger barrels here and we do flute them if we plan on using the rifle in any position other than in the rest...

so not being able to flute the barrel makes it a bad choice for me, it might be a good choice for someone else though..

but the reason why they can't be fluted is in another post in this thread, something I didn't know when I posted my statment.

 

[kjcpoint]

Broughton has 4.1 contour they flute and makes a great tube for hunting.
If your set on fluting, thats the barrel to get.

Kyle

 

[wvuredneck09]

I'm not set on fluting I'm just set on saving weight where I can but I dont want to give up to much on the accuracy end. As stated previously temp and shot strings aren't an issue as even when sighting in/load development 5 shot groups are the normal. I'm shooting for a 10lb rig with scope and everything. Leaves me about 3.5lbs for the barrel.