Tipping and concentricity benefits

[CH Luke]

In general I have loads with two powders (for supply redundancy) reaching 2810-2835 fps and single digit SD and ES with 308 Juggs. Planning ahead for much more LR F T/R competition so want to add:
1) Whidden bullet tipping
2) Sinclair concentricity guage
3) Upgrade my standard Redding dies to new Type S bushing die and seating die to improve concentricity.

The thinking is this is the next logical step in the progression to improved accuracy. Of course there are lots of other variables but let's just assume for a minute it's just this combination of next steps. Does this seem like a worth while investment of $500+?

 

[DocBII]

CH Luke,

You don't mention what processes you currently use, but improved consistency starts with the case, the powder charge, the bullet and then the loaded round.

Case: In no particular order; primer pocket, neck thickness, neck tension, flash hole, case volume or weight, neck cleanliness or lube, chamfer.

Bullet: In order of greatest effect; OGL, meplat diameter, bullet meplat length. Some would add bearing surface in there somewhere.

Powder charge: +/- 0.1 wll get you close enough to OBT to work.

Loaded round: It only gets better as the run out gets closer to 0.000" and the jump/jam becomes more consistent.

HTH,
DocBII

 

[CH Luke]

DocBII
Appreciate the input. Wanted to save writing a longer email thinking the low SD/ES would speak to the consistency of the case because I was thinking inconsistency would not allow them. I am all ears though.

Did find a very nice, fairly wide node with each powder (Varget and H4895) at a .005 jump that I both tested to and was in the range recommended by my gunsmith (Ray Bowman) that set the chamber. All this has lead to some nice 600 yd scores and improved 100-200 yd test performance.

To date this has been done within a budget each year for improvements. The ones I was thinking about above might be harder to validate much during the shorter range testing I have access to during the winter here in Michigan. Next year I do plan to ramp up my competition schedule with several 1000 yard matches (5) and probably another 8 matches at 600. That was what I was thinking while framing the original question.

You raised a point about being able to have a more consistent jump which I had anticipated would also be aided by both the bullet tipping and the improved seating die. I've read here about the benefits of tipping and it seems worthwhile particularly at 1000 yds- but it's expensive.

Concentricity came to mind in my plans because I haven't even had a gauge up to this point. Seems a pre-requisite for serious competition at any range so the items I listed were the components that seemed would cover this important aspect.

Do have to admit I don't spend a lot of time sorting my bullets and haven't gone beyond weight doing that.

Thank you for your input.

 

[barefooter56]

CH Luke,
Start with the Sinclair Concentricity gauge and check the runout you are getting with the dies you have now. Use ONLY FIRE BRASS when checking concentricity. Check the cartridge case , just out of the chamber (fired), check it again after coming out of your full length, neck or body die ( what ever one or combination you are using). All these checks should be done on the case neck about in the middle of the neck. Make sure that the dial indicator is "pre-loaded" .010 to .015 and then re-zero the dial indicator face and set up markers before doing any checks. When you check a seated bullet. Be sure to get the probe of the dial indicator as close to the bullet/casemouth junction as you can get it without touching the case neck as you spin the cartridge. Using this method you can find which die ( if any) is causing concentricity issues and how straight the chamber is. General rule of thumb I was taught is .0-.005 runout is the range you need to be in. As far as correcting issues with a die that is affecting your concentricity . Start with backing the locking screw in the lock ring out away from the threads of the die and run another fired cartridge case that you check the concentricity before and after running it through the die. If the issue goes away you can either change out the die lock ring for a cross bolt style or try the o-ring under the lock ring trick so the die "floats" in the threads and self centers itself as the cartridge case goes up into the die. Sometimes having a die "locked down" can work against you . Glen Zedikers book HANDLOADING FOR COMPETITION has many good suggestions on this also and is a good reference to have . The money you save on dies you can use on the Bullet tipping die. If you want to learn how to shoot 1000yds in Michigan go to the matches at GRAYLING ! If you can shoot well their you can do it anywhere! SEMNO has great matches at Midland during the spring/summer and fall also. 600 yards.
Hope this helps!

 

[DocBII]

CH Luke,

Go for the low hanging fruit first. This requires very few tools and gets the most bang for the buck and time to accomplish.

1. Quit weighing bullets and sort by ogive length into +/- 0.0025 groups or +/- 0.001 for some bullets. This depends upon manufacturer. As you sort the first 50 or so, you'll see how they sort out. Cost for the Hornady bullet comparator tool and inexpensive caliper is around $50-75.

2. Buy the largest lot of any component you can afford. This applies to everything; bullets, primers powder. The larger the lot, the longer your loads will remain consistent, especially after sorting or after changing something.

3. Buy a good scale/powder dispenser. This is expensive, $100-150 to start for digital scale only, the speed will make up for the price. You can get a balance beam scale for much less, and for some operations it's just as fast.

4. Neck turning then weighing cases after any other prep work, such as primer pockets and flash hole uniforming. K&M neck turning tool is around $50-$100 on options. Primer pocket and flash hole tools were around $20 each when I last looked.

5. Concentricity tools run between $125 for used and more than I'll spend for new. I've got around 5 or 6 hundred bucks in tools, only use one and probably 5 or 6 have been introduced since I settled on my choice.

6. Cleaning the necks with 4-0 steel wool after sizing and chamfering is cheap, easy and works to improve run-out. 4-0 steel wool costs about $4 for a bunch, use your worn-out brushes to hold steel wool.

7. Meplat trimming with or without pointing will reduce your group size. Pointing may get most of the BC back.

Lots of individual caveats for these recommendations depend upon the cartridge and caliber. I'm sure other folks will let you know what these are, but these recommendations are a pretty good place to start.

HTH,
DocBII

 

[6BRinNZ]

DocBII
Appreciate the input. Wanted to save writing a longer email thinking the low SD/ES would speak to the consistency of the case because I was thinking inconsistency would not allow them. I am all ears though.

Did find a very nice, fairly wide node with each powder (Varget and H4895) at a .005 jump that I both tested to and was in the range recommended by my gunsmith (Ray Bowman) that set the chamber. All this has lead to some nice 600 yd scores and improved 100-200 yd test performance.

To date this has been done within a budget each year for improvements. The ones I was thinking about above might be harder to validate much during the shorter range testing I have access to during the winter here in Michigan. Next year I do plan to ramp up my competition schedule with several 1000 yard matches (5) and probably another 8 matches at 600. That was what I was thinking while framing the original question.

You raised a point about being able to have a more consistent jump which I had anticipated would also be aided by both the bullet tipping and the improved seating die. I've read here about the benefits of tipping and it seems worthwhile particularly at 1000 yds- but it's expensive.

Concentricity came to mind in my plans because I haven't even had a gauge up to this point. Seems a pre-requisite for serious competition at any range so the items I listed were the components that seemed would cover this important aspect.

Do have to admit I don't spend a lot of time sorting my bullets and haven't gone beyond weight doing that.

Thank you for your input.

Bullet pointing won't help jump. Consistency in seating depth is high on the "makes a difference" list IMO. To this end a Bob green bullet sorter and a tool to measure actual seated base to ogive measurements.

 

[jr600yd]

Others have given good advise about neck turning, bullet sorting and case prep. Bullet pointing and trimming does make a difference, question is how much? This will depend on what caliber bullet your using. Smaller caliber Bullets respond to pointing and trimming better than large calibers. The reason is the hole in the meplat. It's a ratio thing. The size of the hole in relation to the size of the bullet. For your 185 Jugs pointed and trimmed Bullets will give you a BC improvement between .03-.05% this translates to about 1 less MOA of elevation at 1K and slightly less wind drift. Doesn't sound like much but that 9 could have been a 10! Is it worth it? My answer is YES.

Concentricity guages. I have the NECO. Had it for over twenty years, probably used it twenty times. If you must have one I recommend this brand. You can use it to do other things besides checking for bullet runout.