Timing an action

[boltfluter]

Boyd,

The best explanation that I have heard yet. Makes a lot more sense now. Thanks.

Regards, Paul

www.boltfluting.com

 

[BradY]

For those of us that arent able to send an action to Mr Wheeler who put up that fantastic video, whats the fix?

 

[seb]

For those of us that arent able to send an action to Mr Wheeler who put up that fantastic video, whats the fix?

Lots of (if not most) factory rifles are not timed properly.
There are at least three ways to cure the issue, or to have a good timed action:
1. Get or make an adjustable (back & forth) trigger hanger . It's easy/the easiest if you have action with trigger hanger
2. Grind the primary sear/lever of the trigger if it picks up the the bolt's cocking piece too early
3. Turn the bolt lugs or the receiver's in a lathe
You can also make a new primary cam/lever

But those only IF you have the skills, and it should be within 0.005" or less.

Or, to find a trigger that "fortunately" works. Not all triggers are the same, many even loose or has over tolerances.

seb.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

For those of us that arent able to send an action to Mr Wheeler who put up that fantastic video, whats the fix?

Lots of (if not most) factory rifles are not timed properly.
There are at least three ways to cure the issue, or to have a good timed action:
1. Get or make an adjustable (back & forth) trigger hanger . It's easy/the easiest if you have action with trigger hanger
2. Grind the primary sear/lever of the trigger if it picks up the the bolt's cocking piece too early
3. Turn the bolt lugs or the receiver's in a lathe
You can also make a new primary cam/lever

But those only IF you have the skills, and it should be within 0.005" or less.

Or, to find a trigger that "fortunately" works. Not all triggers are the same, many even loose or has over tolerances.

seb.

If your action has very little cock on close you get away with #1 or #2. I would not recommend #3. Remember for every thousandth you grind or move the trigger forward you loose that in pin fall. That is where the work comes in, gaining back the pin fall.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I have a Rem 700 SS Ultra Mag action that I built a rifle on. Has a Timney trigger and factory bolt which I also had fluted. I was able to get the action timed to where it is silky smooth with just a little grinding on the cocking piece of the bolt.

I also have a rifle I built on a Rem 722 action with a Jewell Trigger and PTG bolt. I am having more trouble getting the 722 bolt throw smoothed out. The bolt body is a fat design and seems to drag in the action a bit so that may be part of it, but the cocking action is definitely felt WAY more than my 700. I was thinking about getting deep flutes on the bolt to help that part of the smoothness, but is there anything different I can do on a 722 to resolve this? The 722 and 700 are basically the same design so I thought I would have the same results. Perhaps I'm missing something that needs to be done with the 722...

Thanks

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Some Timney triggers have the pick up point much further forward than Jewells. Good for smoothness, bad for pinfall. If you dont have at least .230 and preferably .250+ pin fall you have a problem. I am not a fan of those PTG bolts, unless it is on of the 2 piece bolts and you timed the bolt handle to your action. Either way you have 3 mass produced parts assembled. You probably have too much cock on close to just grind the cocking piece.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Some Timney triggers have the pick up point much further forward than Jewells. Good for smoothness, bad for pinfall. If you dont have at least .230 and preferably .250+ pin fall you have a problem. I am not a fan of those PTG bolts, unless it is on of the 2 piece bolts and you timed the bolt handle to your action. Either way you have 3 mass produced parts assembled. You probably have too much cock on close to just grind the cocking piece.

The cock on close isn't that bad. I have it to where the cocking piece doesn't move much at all in the shroud when closing the bolt. Opening is the worst part when compared to my 700. Probably grind and polish the cocking pin raceway on the bolt body some more. I guess 3 different parts wasn't the best idea.

 

[BoydAllen]

Very slight amounts of cock on close will not show up in a demonstration such as the one on the video. I have a rifle that I have intentionally set up to have about .020 of cock on close, to increase the pin fall of a custom action. The other thing that can cause some issues is the depth of the indexing detent that is just past the top of the cocking cam. An experienced smith, working carefully, can lower the hump between the detent and the top of the cam and smooth out the action. It is important that if this is done, that the center of the detent not be moved. Virtually none of this will affect accuracy with the exception of reducing the disturbance of a rifle on its sand bags caused by cycling the action, and this is mostly an issue for the competition crowd that shoot free recoil. For everyone else that is shooting a hunting or varmint style stock and holding his rifle, this would be a virtual non issue.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Some Timney triggers have the pick up point much further forward than Jewells. Good for smoothness, bad for pinfall. If you dont have at least .230 and preferably .250+ pin fall you have a problem. I am not a fan of those PTG bolts, unless it is on of the 2 piece bolts and you timed the bolt handle to your action. Either way you have 3 mass produced parts assembled. You probably have too much cock on close to just grind the cocking piece.

The cock on close isn't that bad. I have it to where the cocking piece doesn't move much at all in the shroud when closing the bolt. Opening is the worst part when compared to my 700. Probably grind and polish the cocking pin raceway on the bolt body some more. I guess 3 different parts wasn't the best idea.

Its hard to say without seeing it. Your in Mt right? Why not show up shoot the 1000 yd IBS match in Missoula this weekend?

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Very slight amounts of cock on close will not show up in a demonstration such as the one on the video. I have a rifle that I have intentionally set up to have about .020 of cock on close, to increase the pin fall of a custom action. The other thing that can cause some issues is the depth of the indexing detent that is just past the top of the cocking cam. An experienced smith, working carefully, can lower the hump between the detent and the top of the cam and smooth out the action. It is important that if this is done, that the center of the detent not be moved. Virtually none of this will affect accuracy with the exception of reducing the disturbance of a rifle on its sand bags caused by cycling the action, and this is mostly an issue for the competition crowd that shoot free recoil. For everyone else that is shooting a hunting or varmint style stock and holding his rifle, this would be a virtual non issue.

Boyd, your correct. the only benefit of timing is smooth bolt close which helps you run em faster. Except on Bats because I increase the fall as well. I am not recommending grinding on the cocking piece if your not going to correct the lack of pin fall afterwards. Cock on close is much better than not enough pin fall.

 

[BoydAllen]

Thanks for the clarification as to the specifics of his work on BATs. I would think that he would get a lot of interest in that sort of work from the benchrest crowd, who continue to support an active and diverse cottage industry based on fixing perceived inadequacies of the BAT striker assemblies. Many if not most actions, are not built so close to the line with regard to striker fall, and energy. For them, this is mostly an esthetic issue. Nevertheless, we all like our toys to function smoothly. Bottom line, I am an admirer of this kind of attention to detail, and creative thinking.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Some Timney triggers have the pick up point much further forward than Jewells. Good for smoothness, bad for pinfall. If you dont have at least .230 and preferably .250+ pin fall you have a problem. I am not a fan of those PTG bolts, unless it is on of the 2 piece bolts and you timed the bolt handle to your action. Either way you have 3 mass produced parts assembled. You probably have too much cock on close to just grind the cocking piece.

The cock on close isn't that bad. I have it to where the cocking piece doesn't move much at all in the shroud when closing the bolt. Opening is the worst part when compared to my 700. Probably grind and polish the cocking pin raceway on the bolt body some more. I guess 3 different parts wasn't the best idea.

Its hard to say without seeing it. Your in Mt right? Why not show up shoot the 1000 yd IBS match in Missoula this weekend?

I'm overseas at work again. Wanted to start shooting there again this year, but just have too much going on right now. Family stuff, buying a new house, planning for a huge upcoming hunting season, etc. I drew my rifle bull elk breaks permit and early wilderness mulle deer permit. Gotta get my son practicing more since he'll be able to hunt deer this year after the new hunting laws take effect and have to help my father hunt moose since he finally drew a tag after applying for the last 35 years. Gonna be pretty hectic. Hopefully be able to come shoot with you fellas next year though

 

[Riesel]

That is an excellent video showing the timing between the trigger sear and the cocking piece. In my opinion, this is a larger nuisance than the bolt extractor timing. Seems to me, when re-cocking the action the firing pin resetting has a lot of pull moving that bolt out of battery. When you're removing a sticky case, it's sticky from the get go and not always at the end of the bolt lift. Just Saying .............my .02 cents.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Some Timney triggers have the pick up point much further forward than Jewells. Good for smoothness, bad for pinfall. If you dont have at least .230 and preferably .250+ pin fall you have a problem. I am not a fan of those PTG bolts, unless it is on of the 2 piece bolts and you timed the bolt handle to your action. Either way you have 3 mass produced parts assembled. You probably have too much cock on close to just grind the cocking piece.

The cock on close isn't that bad. I have it to where the cocking piece doesn't move much at all in the shroud when closing the bolt. Opening is the worst part when compared to my 700. Probably grind and polish the cocking pin raceway on the bolt body some more. I guess 3 different parts wasn't the best idea.

Its hard to say without seeing it. Your in Mt right? Why not show up shoot the 1000 yd IBS match in Missoula this weekend?

I'm overseas at work again. Wanted to start shooting there again this year, but just have too much going on right now. Family stuff, buying a new house, planning for a huge upcoming hunting season, etc. I drew my rifle bull elk breaks permit and early wilderness mulle deer permit. Gotta get my son practicing more since he'll be able to hunt deer this year after the new hunting laws take effect and have to help my father hunt moose since he finally drew a tag after applying for the last 35 years. Gonna be pretty hectic. Hopefully be able to come shoot with you fellas next year though

Man what a list of EXCUSES ;D See you in March then, right?

 

[Ledd Slinger]

Some Timney triggers have the pick up point much further forward than Jewells. Good for smoothness, bad for pinfall. If you dont have at least .230 and preferably .250+ pin fall you have a problem. I am not a fan of those PTG bolts, unless it is on of the 2 piece bolts and you timed the bolt handle to your action. Either way you have 3 mass produced parts assembled. You probably have too much cock on close to just grind the cocking piece.

The cock on close isn't that bad. I have it to where the cocking piece doesn't move much at all in the shroud when closing the bolt. Opening is the worst part when compared to my 700. Probably grind and polish the cocking pin raceway on the bolt body some more. I guess 3 different parts wasn't the best idea.

Its hard to say without seeing it. Your in Mt right? Why not show up shoot the 1000 yd IBS match in Missoula this weekend?

I'm overseas at work again. Wanted to start shooting there again this year, but just have too much going on right now. Family stuff, buying a new house, planning for a huge upcoming hunting season, etc. I drew my rifle bull elk breaks permit and early wilderness mulle deer permit. Gotta get my son practicing more since he'll be able to hunt deer this year after the new hunting laws take effect and have to help my father hunt moose since he finally drew a tag after applying for the last 35 years. Gonna be pretty hectic. Hopefully be able to come shoot with you fellas next year though

Man what a list of EXCUSES ;D See you in March then, right?

LOL. I'll try to make it happen