Thoughts on partial case separation

[MrK.]

I always take my guns out to verify that they are still zeroed prior to deer season. I typically just shoot a few shots if they are on then back in the safe. Prior to 21-22 season one of the guns I took out was my Ruger M77 in 338 federal. When I got home and was inspecting the brass I noticed that one of the pieces had separated about 3/4s the way around slightly below mid-case. The cases are necked up Remington .308 cases. These rounds were loaded 10-12 years ago and I set my die up according to RCBS instructions. Screw the die In until it contacts the shell holder then add a quarter turn or so. One of the guys on the ranch where I hunt is a gunsmith and I had him check the headspace on the gun. He used the go gauge and scotch tape method and we were able to get three layers on the gauge and still close the bolt albeit with some force required. Now my reloading has gotten somewhat more sophisticated since these rounds were loaded and I was able to determine that the difference between a fired case and one sized using the RCBS instructions was .009 in. I looked at all of the fired cases in the box with my bore scope and none of them had the tell tale stretch mark of imminent case separation. I loaded up a few rounds with new brass and the gas apparently cut a shallow ring in the chamber because the newly fired rounds have a barely visible ring that matches where the previous case separated. What should I do? Try to buff it out? Send it back to Ruger? Rebarrel it? Rechamber it to .338-.284 Winchester? Shoot it like it is?

 

[47WillysGuy]

Since you fixed the problem of excessive headspace problem and I'd load up a quantity of of test loads, go fire them and visually inspect the results. If you don't like the results and have the $$$$, replace the barrel or maybe even just re-chamber. It's a hunting rifle.

If I was Ruger, I'd tell you " oh. sorry, what buy a new barrel."

I followed RCBS directions in case resizing for a .220 swift back when. Oh my, I get 3-4 reloads at best, (maybe). Split necks or case separation was the norm. Really bad direction from RCBS, covering their butt. Good luck.

 

[bozo699]

Since you fixed the problem of excessive headspace problem and I'd load up a quantity of of test loads, go fire them and visually inspect the results. If you don't like the results and have the $$$$, replace the barrel or maybe even just re-chamber. It's a hunting rifle.

If I was Ruger, I'd tell you " oh. sorry, what buy a new barrel."

I followed RCBS directions in case resizing for a .220 swift back when. Oh my, I get 3-4 reloads at best, (maybe). Split necks or case separation was the norm. Really bad direction from RCBS, covering their butt. Good luck.

All die makers give terrible instructions and if you follow them you’re not gonna have good brass life.
Wayne

 

[Webster]

All die makers give terrible instructions and if you follow them you’re not gonna have good brass life.
Wayne

Agree the instructions are bad. I think they are intended to make a case that will fit in any chamber without any reguard to chamber size or case life. The factory doesn't care if your reloading. Buy a shoulder bump guage to help adjust the dies for your chamber. You don't need an expensive caliper. I use a cheap Harbor Freight digital caliper. It's good enough for my use.

 

[ShtrRdy]

On the new cases that were fired, can you feel the visible ring with a finger nail? Do you feel more force needed on the bolt to extract a fired case?

 

[Doom]

Agree the instructions are bad. I think they are intended to make a case that will fit in any chamber without any reguard to chamber size or case life. The factory doesn't care if your reloading. Buy a shoulder bump guage to help adjust the dies for your chamber. You don't need an expensive caliper. I use a cheap Harbor Freight digital caliper. It's good enough for my use.

The instructions are not bad. The instructions are based on the die design dimensions and SAAMI maximum case dimensions to insure that a cartridge will fit in a SAAMI minimum dimension chamber. Few of us have SAAMI minimum chambers so the brass will be oversized unless we actually modify the procedure to minimize the amount of resizing that is done on the datum dimension (length of case from base to the shoulder datum diameter.

 

[Deleted member fkimble@charter.net]

I find it very hard to believe a single partial separation caused a cut in your chamber. Maybe a little carbon build up. Give the chamber a good scrubbing. What amount are you now reducing the shoulder set back? Even if there is a "cut" in the chamber, there are 2 questions needing an answer. Is the "cut" causing difficultly in opening the bolt, and is it causing accuracy to suffer? The answer is most likely no to each question.
Its a hunting rifle. Load it and take it hunting.

Frank

 

[ebb]

Shoot it like it is, if you only hunt with it. How many rounds do you shoot with it per year? Most of the shoots I fire while hunting, I lose the brass anyway. I would load it with necked up 308 brass that was about worn out, or range picked up brass, and after shooting in the 338 I would toss it. If this gun gets shoot a lot and you like it, maybe rebarrel. This is the cartridge you picked and liked at the time if that is still the case i would not change it. 30-284 is just an expressive set of dies, and if you like it the way it is just use trash brass and go for it

 

[MrK.]

Just wanted to update and add more information/ answer questions. Yes this is just a hunting rifle that I typically shoot 3-4 times a year. It’s a beautiful accurate fast handling gun but I find myself getting recoil sensitive as I age. Yes it was a single shot that has cut the chamber. It was the last of the three that I shot checking zero. I have shot it one time since then. I was shooting brass with several reloads and purchased some new Hornady .308 brass and necked it up. I have about 30 of the old RP brass loads which I will probably break down. Attached pic shows the top half of the separated case (I lost the bottom half in the last year and a half) and the new once fired Hornady case. The line you can see goes about 1/2 of the way around the case and is just barely discernible with my fingernail. I buffed the chamber with scotch bright but have not shot it since.

Edit for spelling and to add that I currently use a Hornady headspace gauge and digital caliper to measure the shoulder bump on current reloads. As mentioned above, these reloads are several years old.

 

[K22]

Agree the instructions are bad. I think they are intended to make a case that will fit in any chamber without any reguard to chamber size or case life. The factory doesn't care if your reloading. Buy a shoulder bump guage to help adjust the dies for your chamber. You don't need an expensive caliper. I use a cheap Harbor Freight digital caliper. It's good enough for my use.

This is very sound advice.

 

[bozo699]

Agree the instructions are bad. I think they are intended to make a case that will fit in any chamber without any reguard to chamber size or case life. The factory doesn't care if your reloading. Buy a shoulder bump guage to help adjust the dies for your chamber. You don't need an expensive caliper. I use a cheap Harbor Freight digital caliper. It's good enough for my use.

I own and have used the Hornaday gauges but prefer to strip my bolt and do it that way especially on my competition rifles.
Wayne

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I always take my guns out to verify that they are still zeroed prior to deer season. I typically just shoot a few shots if they are on then back in the safe. Prior to 21-22 season one of the guns I took out was my Ruger M77 in 338 federal. When I got home and was inspecting the brass I noticed that one of the pieces had separated about 3/4s the way around slightly below mid-case. The cases are necked up Remington .308 cases. These rounds were loaded 10-12 years ago and I set my die up according to RCBS instructions. Screw the die In until it contacts the shell holder then add a quarter turn or so. One of the guys on the ranch where I hunt is a gunsmith and I had him check the headspace on the gun. He used the go gauge and scotch tape method and we were able to get three layers on the gauge and still close the bolt albeit with some force required. Now my reloading has gotten somewhat more sophisticated since these rounds were loaded and I was able to determine that the difference between a fired case and one sized using the RCBS instructions was .009 in. I looked at all of the fired cases in the box with my bore scope and none of them had the tell tale stretch mark of imminent case separation. I loaded up a few rounds with new brass and the gas apparently cut a shallow ring in the chamber because the newly fired rounds have a barely visible ring that matches where the previous case separated. What should I do? Try to buff it out? Send it back to Ruger? Rebarrel it? Rechamber it to .338-.284 Winchester? Shoot it like it is?

There's your likely problem.

 

[bozo699]

There's your likely problem.

Most certainly, those instructions have screwed lots of people up including me when I first started and didn’t know better
Wayne

 

[ebb]

Anytime I've ever seen a gouge or recess in a chamber the brass would always expand into the void and make extraction very hard, but never heard of one cutting the case in two. If the gun has too long of a head space and is stretching the brass, how would a new proper length piece of brass fix the problem , it would be too short also, wouldn't it? Maybe I am not seeing something here???

 

[bozo699]

Anytime I've ever seen a gouge or recess in a chamber the brass would always expand into the void and make extraction very hard, but never heard of one cutting the case in two. If the gun has too long of a head space and is stretching the brass, how would a new proper length piece of brass fix the problem , it would be too short also, wouldn't it? Maybe I am not seeing something here???

Ebb,
If he took a new piece of brass and fire formed it to his chamber maybe a couple of times without pushing the shoulder back then after that f/l size and push shoulder back .002 or if he has the knowledge he could use strip bolt method
Wayne

 

[Deleted member fkimble@charter.net]

ebb, the headspace was too long because the brass was being over resized.

Frank

 

[MrK.]

ebb, the headspace was too long because the brass was being over resized.

Frank

I think the chamber is long as well which is contributing to the issue. I don't know if it would close on a no-go gauge or not because we didn't have one but I think three layers of scotch tape seems excessive when using that method.
I think what I will do is jam some bullets with a light charge of a suitable powder to hopefully form the new Hornady brass to the chamber without stretching it. Alternately I could neck it up further to .375 or .40 then size it back down to .338 to form a false shoulder. Thoughts on those ideas?

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

I think Ruger would want to take a look at a firearm they manufactured/shipped that is out of SAAMI spec. Figure out if it is or isn't.

 

[bozo699]

I think the chamber is long as well which is contributing to the issue. I don't know if it would close on a no-go gauge or not because we didn't have one but I think three layers of scotch tape seems excessive when using that method.
I think what I will do is jam some bullets with a light charge of a suitable powder to hopefully form the new Hornady brass to the chamber without stretching it. Alternately I could neck it up further to .375 or .40 then size it back down to .338 to form a false shoulder. Thoughts on those ideas?

MrK,
I’ve never had your exact problem but I have fireformed a lot of brass with a false shoulder with excellent results blowing out 6br to brx and Dasher. Try it and check your results, I’ll bet it works fine let us know.
P.S I’ve never had good luck with Hornaday brass.
Wayne

 

[6.5 forever]

All die makers give terrible instructions and if you follow them you’re not gonna have good brass life.
Wayne

This is the absolute truth.