case separation

[bigedp51]

Boyd Allen

The Enfield chambers were reamed larger in diameter and longer in shoulder location in 1914 because of the muddy conditions of trench warfare and a British Government scandal over cronyism and poorly made ammunition. Politics, money and corruption decided who was awarded government contracts to produce the .303 British cartridge. This lead to jammed rifles in the trenches and dead British soldiers.

Bottom line the military Enfield chamber is much larger than American SAAMI standards and only one company today makes .303 cases to British military standards and that is Prvi Partizan. These case have thicker rims, the case walls are .010 thicker and the base diameter of these cases are larger than American produced ammunition.

P.S. The O-ring method of fire forming cases has added benefits, as the bolt closes it compresses the "round" o-ring into an oval and centers the rear of the case in the over sized chamber and thus improves accuracy.

 

[BoydAllen]

Putting the jaws of a dial caliper on the .300 up from the head line (approximate) the difference in diameters from new to fired is about .0065 which, allowing for spring back means that the chamber is probably about .0075 larger than an unfired case. My brass is Remington and the good news is that the expansion bulge looks to be even all the way around, so at least that is good. The primer protrusion of the fired brass is so small that the case does not rock, and the edges of the primer are rounded. The shoulder of the fired case is .009 larger than a new case, and the shoulder was blown forward .0315, a one time occurrence that did not cause any thinning in front of the web that I can feel...not even the slightest groove. Obviously I will take care not to bump the shoulder any more than I would for an accurate bolt rifle that I was making rifle specific loads for. I put a fired case on my old Sinclair concentricity gauge and the TIR at the end of the neck .0025. Nothing about these numbers remotely resembles anything that one would specify for an accurate rifle, but I do haul it out about once a decade just to see if it still can be made to shoot reasonably well. Personally, I think that ..303 Enfield stories are more suited to sites that are not about cutting edge accuracy.

 

[bigedp51]

I think that ..303 Enfield stories are more suited to sites that are not about cutting edge accuracy.

Boyd, Boyd, Boyd, this posting is about case head separations and anyone who reloads for a Enfield rifle and their cases only die of a split necks understands long case life and accuracy.

Your problem Boyd Allen is very common in forums, you sit in front of your computer screen and start thinking that what you are looking at belongs to just you. The truth of the matter Boyd Allen is thousands of people read these postings looking for information and belong to this forum. Your problem Boyd Allen is you just don't understand this forum isn't the Starship Enterprise and your not Captain Kirk.

Bottom line, as long as you keep thinking your opinion is the only one that matters the Klingons will always be at war with Captain Kirk.

P.S. You should hear what Spock is saying about you behind your back. :

And this is the reloading forum (all calibers) of Accurateshooter.com and not Boyd Allens web page.

 

[BoydAllen]

I never said that I owned anything, I just expressed my opinion. It must have hit a nerve for a disagreement about a shooting topic to turn into a personal attack.

 

[dmoran]

bigedp51 - Actually everything you wrote to Boyd, describes you, your reactions, and your own spaceship perfectly !.!.!
Where as Boyd does not go on a rant to people, call them names, or post ridiculing pictures in a smear campaign, like you do.
Boyd just gives his opinions and states his experience, right or wrong, which I respect.
Plus Boyd is a "Site $$ Contributor", which tells me he cares about the website and forum more then those who aren't.

 

[bigedp51]

I never said that I owned anything, I just expressed my opinion. It must have hit a nerve for a disagreement about a shooting topic to turn into a personal attack.

Boyd Allen, according to you no one should ever mention the Enfield rifle in this forum. You also did not like the term 'deck height' I used for shell holders because you never read it in a reloading manual and said I was using the wrong term. And then you decided you did not like the term "the cartridge should fit the chamber like a rat turd in a violin case" coined by the late Jim Hull of the Sierra ballistics testing laboratory and a competitive shooter with far more experience than you have. WHAT JIM HULL WAS HUMOROUSLY SAYING WAS HE FULL LENGTH RESIZED ALL HIS CARTRIDGE CASES.

So let me be perfectly clear Boyd Allen, I'm replying to your nonstop personal attacks, your "cute" comments on if "YOU" approve the subject matter and the idiotic idea that you control what is discussed in this forum. Your overbearing arrogance trying to control the subject matter here is annoying and very childish.

You lost the discussion about who know more about the Enfield rifle, so after "YOU" made four post about the Enfield rifle in this posting you decide to take your marbles and go home and say the discussion of the Enfield rifle doesn't belong in this forum.

Grow up Boyd Allen, you tried to dazzle the forum members about a subject you know very little about. And then threw a tantrum when you were out classed by some with more knowledge on the subject. On top of this the Enfield rifle held 1000 yard accuracy records at Bisley England and out shot the American Springfield 03 rifle and you say it doesn't belong in this forum. Get a life Boyd Allen and stick to subjects you know something about.

 

[bigedp51]

bigedp51 - Actually everything you wrote to Boyd, describes you, your reactions, and your own spaceship perfectly !.!.!
Where as Boyd does not go on a rant to people, call them names, or post ridiculing pictures in a smear campaign, like you do.
Boyd just gives his opinions and states his experience, right or wrong, which I respect.
Plus Boyd is a "Site $$ Contributor", which tells me he cares about the website and forum more then those who aren't.

Dear dmoran

You once sent me a PM out of the blue saying if I ever used one of your images you would bring a lawsuit against me. I replied you didn't have any images worth using and you still must have a bruised injured ego so your posting here is no surprise.

So your telling me a "Site $$ Contributor" can be rude, make smug comments, pick the subject matter and earn my undying respect. Yeah right :

Good Luck with your drawings
bigedp51

 

[jds holler]

I'd like to mention here that especially in a bolt action rifle, that a case separation isn't exactly a cataclysmic, deaths-door, occurrence.

One of my favorite rifles is a sweet little 218 Bee in a Winchester model 43 action. I shoot this thing A LOT, and learned long ago about how to size cases which headspace on the rim. Matter of fact the 218 could easily be seen as a miniaturized 303. They may even be working with similar pressure, my books don't show stats for either of them.

Anyway -- my supply of brass is quite large, but many of them have been loaded somewhere around thirty eleven times. For me, discarding brass is a normal occurrence every time I shoot and load for this rifle. I am a notorious tight wad, and never throw out a brass for this gun until I find it cracked or separated at the web. I have never been blowed up, or scorched by fire and hot gasses.

I also routinely reuse Zip-Loc bags, and refill water bottles. :

Does anyone have any "case separation horror stories"? jd

 

[CatShooter]

I'd like to mention here that especially in a bolt action rifle, that a case separation isn't exactly a cataclysmic, deaths-door, occurrence.

One of my favorite rifles is a sweet little 218 Bee in a Winchester model 43 action. I shoot this thing A LOT, and learned long ago about how to size cases which headspace on the rim. Matter of fact the 218 could easily be seen as a miniaturized 303. They may even be working with similar pressure, my books don't show stats for either of them.

Anyway -- my supply of brass is quite large, but many of them have been loaded somewhere around thirty eleven times. For me, discarding brass is a normal occurrence every time I shoot and load for this rifle. I am a notorious tight wad, and never throw out a brass for this gun until I find it cracked or separated at the web. I have never been blowed up, or scorched by fire and hot gasses.

I also routinely reuse Zip-Loc bags, and refill water bottles. :

Does anyone have any "case separation horror stories"? jd

Many of the older cartridges were down rated because of the weak rifles that were chambered for them.

The 22 Hornet and .218 Bee were once rated at 35,000 because of the Winchester 43 - the 22 Hornet has been up rated to 490 MAP, and the .218 Bee is pending testing.

I load my .218 Bee for ~40,000 for my Winchester/Browning 65, and upwards of 55/60,000 for my Ruger #1.

The .303 British is in the same boat -it has been up rated to 490 MAP and in a proper rifle (NOT a Savage 99), can run with the big dogs. In a P-14, it will easily handle 60,000, or until the primers fall out... and keep on smiling.




The MAP (x100) of the older cartridges have been upped in recent years.

The Hornet was 350, it is now 490, the 222 Rem was 450 (because of the Savage 340), it is now 550

 

[BoydAllen]

You did not finish about the .222. What has its MAP been raised to? I have always figured that in something like a 700 Remington (or my old 722) that it could be treated pretty much like the .223.

 

[CatShooter]

You did not finish about the .222. What has its MAP been raised to? I have always figured that in something like a 700 Remington (or my old 722) that it could be treated pretty much like the .223.

Sorry... I had a phone call, and had to deal with poo-poo...

I fixed it.

The 222 case is as strong as the 223, with the normal variations between makers, like soft-ish Rem and hard-ish Norma and Lapua.

The little pip-squeek .221 FurBall is rated up there with large magnums, because there was only one monster tough firearm originally made for it (and the ones that followed were in the same design family).

 

[bigedp51]

Many of the older cartridges were down rated because of the weak rifles that were chambered for them.

The .303 British is in the same boat -it has been up rated to 490 MAP and in a proper rifle (NOT a Savage 99), can run with the big dogs. In a P-14, it will easily handle 60,000, or until the primers fall out... and keep on smiling.

The MAP (x100) of the older cartridges have been upped in recent years.

CatShooter

1. I thought the chamber pressure were originally lowered because of all the "older and worn" rifles still being used today. And this had nothing to do with these actions when in good shape being able to handle their original standard rated pressure.

2. The .303 British was rated at approximately 46,000 cup or 49,000 psi but it was my understanding the factory loaded ammunition was kept at or below 43,000 cup. And again this was due to the older Enfield rifles still being fired today.

3. The No.4 Enfield rifle was later chambered for the .308/7.62 ending with the beautiful L42A1 and "extremely" accurate sniper rifle.

So CatShooter please use the term "older" instead of "weaker" for these firearms because the Enfield L42A1 .308/7.62 sniper rifle was rated at 52,000 cup. And the very same pressure as the worlds best non-belted magnum the .270 Winchester.

And also remember the Enfield rifles primary purpose was to shoot round holes in square heads.

 

[bigedp51]

Below a case head separation in a Enfield rifle.

A .303 cartridge that started to split was reloaded and chambered, then a sheet of paper was wrapped around the action.

The fired .303 cartridge was placed on the same sheet of paper, please notice the paper does not have any holes in it from venting gas.

No one died or even got a paper cut from the case head separation.

 

[CatShooter]

Below a case head separation in a Enfield rifle.

A .303 cartridge that started to split was reloaded and chambered, then a sheet of paper was wrapped around the action.

The fired .303 cartridge was placed on the same sheet of paper, please notice the paper does not have any holes in it from venting gas.

No one died or even got a paper cut from the case head separation.

.


...and no animals (or girl scouts) were hurt in the preparation of this report.