urbanrifleman
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Shoot the 223 with Bergers and learn how to shoot. And when you beat them, that will really piss them off. Then everyone will be scrambling to copy you.
The next level - - 223 or 6mm
- Thread starter KMW 1954
- Start date
I like your thinking. Also this was sort of my thinking when I rebarreled this Model 11 from a 243 to the 223 Varmint barrel. Kinda just wanted to see how far I could take this and compete against the Big Boys and their expensive toys. A few of these guys have more money ties up in their chassis than I do in this whole rifle. Yet during the past 4 weeks I have been scoring in the top 7, with the one downfall of a 300yd squirrel target that I struggles to cleanly see.
Started the summer out using Nosler 69gr CC and they did well, then shot some SMK 69gr that improved yet again and then some Barnes Match Burners 69gr that again showed a very slight improvement only I couldn't locate more so I have stuck with the Sierra.. 70gr Bergers are also unattainable.
So thank you all for the responses.
My intention is after the league finishes up to upgrade the barrel and the optics then trigger. Questions revolve around the caliber to use. I an very fond of the 223 and also like to not follow the crowd as it were. So if the 223 can be competitive at F Class then why not here where it is limited to just 300yds and the wind is a minimal factor.
Next looking at components. Brass is available from a number of sources for the 223, 6BR not so much. 223 uses slightly less powder and also works well with a variety of readily available powders, most of which I already have on hand. Then comes projectiles. Again the cost of most .224" bullets is half the cost of the .243" bullets.
Some have suggested other calibers than the 223 or 6mmBR variants. Yes I have even looked into barreling to the 6ARC. Partially because I already have about 400pcs of brass for it and I already have a Savage bolt head for it.. At any point I am not ready to go out and spend Big $$$$$ on a custom rifle to shoot a league that only runs 10 weeks.
My intention is after the league finishes up to upgrade the barrel and the optics then trigger. Questions revolve around the caliber to use. I an very fond of the 223 and also like to not follow the crowd as it were. So if the 223 can be competitive at F Class then why not here where it is limited to just 300yds and the wind is a minimal factor.
Next looking at components. Brass is available from a number of sources for the 223, 6BR not so much. 223 uses slightly less powder and also works well with a variety of readily available powders, most of which I already have on hand. Then comes projectiles. Again the cost of most .224" bullets is half the cost of the .243" bullets.
Some have suggested other calibers than the 223 or 6mmBR variants. Yes I have even looked into barreling to the 6ARC. Partially because I already have about 400pcs of brass for it and I already have a Savage bolt head for it.. At any point I am not ready to go out and spend Big $$$$$ on a custom rifle to shoot a league that only runs 10 weeks.
you are not looking at the competition nor their scores when you ask that question. 100/200/300 BENCHREST is dominated by the 6pp, 6b can work as can 30br
you can play different, or you can play to win...win is 6ppc,6br 30br
Now elaborate, How much do people have invested in these rifles? How many are competing more than 10 matches per year? Let's put this in perspective.
I shoot mainly .223 and 6BR.i have others also,including 6PPC.the 6BR beats the.223 all hands down at 300 (in a well built rifle)and beyond.both of mine shoot tight groups.i no it's not paper but I shoot lots of crows at 500+.I don't do that with the.223.i would personally go with the 6BR out of the two.with a 8 twist barrel you have a good selection of match grade bullets of different weight it will cater for or the slower twist for a chosen weight bullet.6PPC is the other one to consider..at 300 it wants some beating.
JSH
Gold $$ Contributor
Dunno, sounds like just a fun match and get your name on the white board in marker for a month.
Gent just wants to play, he wants to stay Savage action and 223, so be it.
I know not even enough to be dangerous about the game. I do know a 69 grain MK will fly well too 300. I can see the 30BR for score.
I have a few decent rifles of various actions, and a few varmint rigs using Savage actions. Let the Savage hate fly, I know what my 6BR and 22BR will do and have upset a few locals with them. Hell, if I really knew what I was doing I could probably be dangerous so to speak.
I thought Bart won the last one with a slow twist 6ppc and he won the one before with a fast twist 6br? He took the guns that were agging the best at the time and knows how to steer both.
Yes I agree that at the highest level with exceptional quality BR gear combined with a forest of wind flags and someone who really knows how to use them the lighter bullet is going to group better. But is it going to SCORE better on a 1moa target with a less experienced shooter, not using dedicated wind flags and not using equipment that aggs on the 1s at 100? I'd say at that level BC is going to win a few points. What do you think a 6br slow twist would agg at 300 vs a fast twist 6br?
OK, I will be honest and admit that some of you are talking completely over my head.
So if I need to spend thousands of dollars to be competitive at a 10 week informal rifle league them maybe I need to find something else to do.
Yes right now there are folks in this league that are using that level of equipment but they are also shooting much more competitive matches throughout the year to warrant that expense.
With what I am using right now I am able to shoot sub MOA at all three ranges.. At 100 and 200 yards I am able to maintain about .5 MOA and at 300 yads around .75 MOA and at the longer 300 distance I attribute that to lack of experience and also to the optics I am using.
So if I need to spend thousands of dollars to be competitive at a 10 week informal rifle league them maybe I need to find something else to do.
Yes right now there are folks in this league that are using that level of equipment but they are also shooting much more competitive matches throughout the year to warrant that expense.
With what I am using right now I am able to shoot sub MOA at all three ranges.. At 100 and 200 yards I am able to maintain about .5 MOA and at 300 yads around .75 MOA and at the longer 300 distance I attribute that to lack of experience and also to the optics I am using.
look into a 308(short action) rem 700 donor rifle and a aftermarket 6br (12/13 twist)or 30br bbl in 17 twist.
big step up...sell one of your savages to get there. i have seen 223's shoot real small, but they aint off the shelf guns.
by the way this is how the trend to spend all your money on guns starts...one local low dollar match...been there done that...now compete with the big boys..occassionally
big step up...sell one of your savages to get there. i have seen 223's shoot real small, but they aint off the shelf guns.
by the way this is how the trend to spend all your money on guns starts...one local low dollar match...been there done that...now compete with the big boys..occassionally
Thanks but I think I will pass on this idea.
It sounds like your goal is to see how much you can squeeze out of what you have, which I understand as I do similar exercises.
What the group here is telling you is that if you want to get into the top 3, you will need to improve your gear.
Savage typically makes a good barrel but they don't perform as well as a Brux, Bartlein, Krieger, etc. That is where I would put my money if you are trying to keep costs to a minimum.
My advice for what it's worth -
lack or experience - there is only one way to get experience and that is practice. But not all practice is good experience - remember the 5 P's "Poor Practice Provides Poor Performance". In other words when you practice make each shot as if it were a shot in competition, don't rush your shot just to get it off so you can get to the next shot, if something is not right or doesn't feel right correct it before taking the shot.
cartridge - stay with the 223 - it sounds like you are doing good with it and as you say components are less expensive and it can be competitive at 300. Go to JBM ballistics and run some drop and drift tables out to 300 you will find that the 223 is not at that much disadvantage.
optics - you didn't say exactly why you are disatisfied with your current optics but if you are dialing and the scope is not tracking then that is an issue you need to fix and likely another scope will be the solution in that case.
I shoot some similar matches and I went down the 6PPC path for a while but I ended up going back to the 223. Why? - I have shot 223's for longer than I want to admit and for me the drift and drop are almost an automatic calculation without even having to think about it.
good luck and keep at it - don't spend a lot of time obsessing over what folks say about your action, barrel, scope or anything else, just enjoy yourself and kick some butt.
drover
JSH
Gold $$ Contributor
If your having fun, that is the main thing period!
I can see wanting to do some kind of improvement trying to do better, that is human nature for the most part.
You can tweak and tinker to your delight and see what you can squeeze out of your rig. See what works and what doesn’t, some will snuff and say this does work and this doesn’t, each gun is as individual as each shooter. Learning and going forward is the main thing.
I myself shoot against me, more than a bus load of others.
Have fun and try what ya want.
Yes I believe I have squeezed out as much as I can from this setup and to the point of diminishing returns as to load development. Then completely agree that it is time to improve the equipment.
Starting point at this time is an improved barrel, most likely a Prefit Shilen. Which has generated this question as to stay 223 or move to 6BR., not a completely new rifle or a move to a new action. That was not the direction of this question. If it was I would be looking for a new Defiance action and a Wisconsin made barrel as was mentioned above and a one piece chassis.. Yes then I would match what I am shooting against.
Last year, my 1st year, I shot with a used factory Savage Model 10 223 with a 22" barrel and I accomplished what I set out to do. I didn't finish Last! I finished 15th out of 20. That was an entry level and I enjoyed it and I learned tremendously from it. It was enough to prompt me to purchase the Model 11 as a barreled action with the intention to do what I am now looking to do. The original intention was to barrel it in 6BR. Only along the way I found locally the Savage Model 12 Varmint barrel that was an unfired take off for the mere price of $100.00... It was quickly put on the action.
So also last year during the summer I purchased an Athlon Helos 6-24X56 scope which I thought was an upgrade to the Athlon Argos 8-34X56 I used last year. Boy did I learn that was the totally wrong scope. Don't get me wrong I love the scope, clear, bright and great detail. Only the reticle is not conducive to what I am attempting to shoot. SFP scope with a fine reticle would be the way to go.
Now my thoughts are starting to wander so I will leave it at this for now. Thanks Everyone!
in my humble opinion 24x is not on the competitive edge at 200/300yards...so you loose points with that scope.
a used luepold 36x
go with the 6br
you are hoping for success with low end gear, life dont work that way
a used luepold 36x
go with the 6br
you are hoping for success with low end gear, life dont work that way
rjtfroggy
Gold $$ Contributor
To answer your question a lot. I put over 3k into 2 Savage actions or better yet 2 rifles setting them up for bench rest. (that is each rifle)
In order, T&T action, better triggers, better scope bases and rings, trued nuts, barrels (progressively better makers) better optics, and lastly a shouldered barrel. Out of all it is a toss up between the scopes and the shouldered barrel that improved the accuracy question. I got them down to 1/4 inch or maybe a little better at 100 but in score that isn't doing it when others are shooting 1/8th or better.
Second question I only shoot 5 two day matches a year at this time.
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