The decline of metallic sights prone shooting in the US

[jpuignau]

With the popularity of shooting disciplines like F-TR/F-Open and the changes in the rules for XTC Service rifle and Match rifle(allowing scopes) I have seen a great decline in the number of shooters that still compete in prone shooting with iron sights (or scopes for that matter). Now I am not bashing scope shooting or any other discipline. I am only referring to the decline in prone shooting.

Have you experience the same decline at your local matches? For example at my local club we used to have on a monthly basis anywhere from 20-25 prone shooters with a mix of scopes and irons. This past season the most I saw were 5 and 4 were using scopes.

Do you think prone shooting will ever reached the numbers pre F-TR/F-Open? If these trends continues are we going to be able to support, and build competitive Palma teams?

Thoughts?

jP

 

[wapiti25]

We are all getting older, eyes usually don't get better with age. The younger guy's seem to want the tactical matches, they are "want a be" assault guy's.

 

[coford]

The aging population is partly to blame. As we get older sights are much more difficult to see. Aging shooters can continue to shoot competitively for years by using scopes. F-Class is more attractive to new shooters as hot coats and uncomfortable shooting positions are not necessary. The same thing has happened to handgun silhouette shooting. I believe sling/sight shooting is a dying sport as we don't seem to be bringing young shooters in and the remaining shooters are getting older.

 

[akajun]

sadly no, Even if you allowed scopes in all sling/offhand disciplines, most people are not willing to put in the time to learn how to properly use a sling, build a position, etc. Sadly I've also noticed people don't want to move firing points, people will line up all day to shoot an all 600yd match under a roof, but change it to where they have to move firing lines and sit in the hot sun and they have stuff to do.
The fact of the mater is that F class and the likes is too easy.
The only deviation I see from this is the surge in PRS type matches.

 

[Hengehold]

The aging population is partly to blame. As we get older sights are much more difficult to see. Aging shooters can continue to shoot competitively for years by using scopes. F-Class is more attractive to new shooters as hot coats and uncomfortable shooting positions are not necessary. The same thing has happened to handgun silhouette shooting. I believe sling/sight shooting is a dying sport as we don't seem to be bringing young shooters in and the remaining shooters are getting older.

JP,

Completely agree with you here. I have seen the same. New shooters come into prone shooting as f-class shooters now rather than highpower/ NRA LR shooters. We are probably about 1 generation away from high power sling shooting being eliminated as a sport in this country. There just are not enough feeder-programs. The military course of fire does not closely match the highpower course of fire anymore. The military was probably the greatest "feeder program" that sport had.

I plan on giving my Palma rifles to my kids (1y/o & 5y/o) but the reality is that there will probably be nowhere for them to compete.

Palma team shooting just needs a hard holder, which can be converts from smallbore. Those are few and far between. My prediction is that Palma sport along with NRA highpower/ LR will be extinct within 10-20yrs. I hope I am wrong!

-Trevor Hengehold

 

[Ned Ludd]

We are all getting older, eyes usually don't get better with age. The younger guy's seem to want the tactical matches, they are "want a be" assault guy's.

This is representative the type of attitude that is at least partly to blame for the decline in the number of conventional shooters across the country. Whether intended or not, insults, name calling, and a snobbish attitude toward anyone that doesn't happen to shoot the same discipline as you have been fairly commonplace over the years, and are not strong recruiting inducements. F-Class shooters often received this type treatment, particularly during the earlier years. Now the shoe is on the other foot, F-Class is growing by leaps and bounds, and conventional shooter numbers are dropping.

It is not possible to change the degree of difficulty involved in conventional shooting without turning it into something else and the difficulty will always be an obstacle for some in terms of starting out. However, a poor attitude aimed at shooters in other disciplines, on top of the difficulty, is not going to help the process. Perhaps a more inclusive and supportive attitude might help with the recruiting process. Just sayin.

 

[marty dabney]

i think it's hard to say at this point. I think someone who would be a contender to be on one of the big Palma teams will continue to shoot iron's. it's just like Small bore. there are other disciplines out there to shoot but they continue to shoot Small Bore. i would also wager to say if you have a really hard prone shooter, no matter the sighting system he uses, if they wanted to shoot Palma, they could transition over without a lot of problems.

I would say they cost and commitment of competing on the Palma teams make it harder to bring in new shooters, more so than adding optics. you add in the appeal of shooting F-class, and there goes some more possible Palma shooters. I've always dreamed of shooting on the Palma team, competing in South Africa or wherever, but it probably not going to happen, not because of optics, but because of life.

 

[clowdis]

gstaylorg,
I agree with most of what you say, however I don't see F-class growing by leaps and bounds here. It did for many years but in the last couple of years it has flattened out. I see it in "transition" as new guys come in and shoot for a while and then get out. The numbers remain about constant and they are still the majority of what you see on the line at Butner and LeJeune. I think Palma shooting will remain as long as there are International Matches and organizations to support it and a smallbore crowd to feed it. I also see a few young shooters moving into long range and Palma via the U21 and U25 teams. It used to be across the course shooters feeding it, that's where I came from. I don't see across the course matches doing anything but going "scope". The only thing holding up the XTC matches now is the military and the CMP. Competitor numbers for this discipline have dropped significantly here. I think the only resort for XTC shooters with iron sights will be the CMP with their M1, M14, and bolt action service rifle matches. People like to try new things and I think that's why the PRS series is going so strong right now. Probably in a few years that will flatten out when people move on the latest "new thing". I'm thinking that the sport of competitive shooting will continue to change over the next 20-30 years with newer shooters trying the "latest greatest" thing. i see the disciplines of Palma and benchrest maintaining their numbers over that period of time.

 

[243Mendoza]

Prone-only matches can be irons or any; it is up to the match organizer to specify the sights allowed.

If I could see with irons, I prefer irons since I do not trust most scopes adjustments repeatibility. Warner sights are more reliable than Nightforce, Sightrons, Leupold, etc.

 

[mgunderson]

Join the Palma Alliance and help make it great again. Sling shooting with irons is an aquired skill. As long as the international matches continue, I believe there will be a dedicated group of shooters.

 

[boltman13]

Palma will continue, perhaps with a switch to any/any sights if other countries also push it. Across the course HP is struggling. In my area the only matches are reduced course and they are not doing very well. We are holding our own in F-Class and even growing with mid range. You are right about shooters not wanting to switch firing lines. Scopes seam to be the wave of the future, even in the military. Even Bench Rest numbers are in decline. The high cost of getting started along with the time comittment is keeping some juniors and their families from getting into competitive shooting. The shotgun sports with reactive targets and lower costs are more attractive to many. I wish I could be more positive, but my personal idea is to strongly push small bore and air rifle to the masses of juniors and hopefully they will graduate to some other type of competition as they progress.

 

[Liven The Dream]

It is my Hope Sling Palma Iron Sights will live on forever.
I am as call us a Grand Senior in HP. I still fight with the eye Doctor for glasses to use those Iron Sight.
It gives me something to work for ? every once in awhile the rewords are Heart warming.
I see less numbers at Matches these days, not sure why ? It my be cost ,and Laws making it just Hard ?

 

[1lnbrdg]

This sport is kind of a $$$ hog.

From junior shooters, when they hit the real world, this is expensive and few love it enough or are able to keep going at it.

Let's face it, if you are choosing between college expenses, child rearing expenses etc. that younger folks have, this kind of goes to the wayside.

Normally see the new shooters from their mid-thirties and up that try for a while, some of them come back and stay with it. If you're talking XTC with a sling, that takes both time and money as the word discipline itself means something that you practice and few in the game ever have enough time to practice until they get to their mid-thirties and up.

Honestly, I could practice F-Class or PRS and run & Gun quicker than I can practice XTC for the same number of shots.

So far, I still prefer sling, seems to give me more fulfillment. In as much as I am aging, I kind of like the scope for service rifle, shooting it again for a change and I'm enjoying it. Not good at it as it's a discipline I have to practice more but I have the drive.

Currently I'm a match director for our little reduced course match, still the same small number of shooters and while I see and hear more people asking the new rules allowing optics, no one new comes out.

I'm kind of at a loss for what to try next to get people out.

 

[Liven The Dream]

This sport is kind of a $$$ hog.

From junior shooters, when they hit the real world, this is expensive and few love it enough or are able to keep going at it.

Let's face it, if you are choosing between college expenses, child rearing expenses etc. that younger folks have, this kind of goes to the wayside.

Normally see the new shooters from their mid-thirties and up that try for a while, some of them come back and stay with it. If you're talking XTC with a sling, that takes both time and money as the word discipline itself means something that you practice and few in the game ever have enough time to practice until they get to their mid-thirties and up.

Honestly, I could practice F-Class or PRS and run & Gun quicker than I can practice XTC for the same number of shots.

So far, I still prefer sling, seems to give me more fulfillment. In as much as I am aging, I kind of like the scope for service rifle, shooting it again for a change and I'm enjoying it. Not good at it as it's a discipline I have to practice more but I have the drive.

Currently I'm a match director for our little reduced course match, still the same small number of shooters and while I see and hear more people asking the new rules allowing optics, no one new comes out.

I'm kind of at a loss for what to try next to get people out.

Well I ran a Range and Built one . One thing that helped get New and Older Shooters out ,was a cook out.
Hot Dogs , Chips and soda. I still get calls asking me to do the cook out even thou I don't run the place.
One other thing do Pay Outs not always on High Score . Do one or two on relay score card drawing.
Then anyone is a Winner .

 

[swd]

At Sacramento metallic sights are alive and well. F Class is maybe 1/4 of the monthly High Power match which is 30-40 shooters.

 

[gme]

heh, it' nice to see some sling shooters on this forum

 

[IdahoSharpshooter]

Combine Type II and Agent Orange, and gonna be 68 next month = trifocals and the death of iron sights here.
Yes, I am sad...

 

[Downhill]

I feel the decline in prone and across the course styles of shooting is neither are really "dynamic". Our XTC program attendance has dropped by roughly 60% over the last 5 years. At the same time 3 gun attendance has grown in this area. The younger crowd seems to like the "run - jump and shoot" stuff. And the prize tables at bigger matches help too.

 

[Mr. Ten-X]

The loss of indoor smallbore ranges due to lead concerns has been catching up for some time. All of those kids that would have shot smallbore in the 70's, 80's and 90's would be the sling/iron Highpower shooters of today. CMP seems to be actively bringing new blood into shooting at the rimfire level, but the other organization doesn't have a plan in place to increase junior shooting that they promote very well.

Most that come into shooting today are a totally different breed than those that started with prone/sling/irons. The "old way" is far too much effort and lots of new folks want instant gratification. F-Class gives it to them. So be it. If that's what keeps shooting interest up and gets the young people shooting on paper, that's fine by me.

Palma is a very small, niche segment of rifle competition and it would be interesting to know how participation numbers nationwide have chanced since the early 2000 timeframe. F-Classes have exploded since then and I'd be very surprised if Palma numbers have stayed even to those in year 2000.

 

[Sniper338]

Im "the young crowd". Speaking from a young crown perspective... I see it dying out. I dont care to wear some gloves and jacket to shoot, and I dont care for crazy/weird positions to sit and lay in for pistol silhuette. None of its natural, none of its real life.

The younger crowd like to run and gun, running, fatigue, breathing hard, gotta make shots count under the stress... its like a tactical course for most of those that havent been in tbe military or done formal training, they get a thrill out of "tactically untactful" shooting. Its fast pace..

F class will hang around because its "sniper style" for those that come then go, then for those that stay with it, its like prone slow fire benchrest. All the benchrest secrets are showing up in f class. Why? Because benchrest is where precise, precision, has been mastered more. The tricks have just moved to f class.

Younger people are attracted to "tactical" because they feel that inner warrior from watching too many movies.

Benchrest? Ive never even seen a match, never seen a bench gun in person. People arent exposed to it. (Buy im buying a bench gun/target rifle, so I may shoot a match soon to try it out).

Young people are exposed to AR15s, tactical, chasis that make bolt guns look like AR15s, tactical, scopes with knobs they dont know how to use correctly, tactical, and accessories like swiss army knives that attach to the forarm via quick connect for when we get invaded giant cockroaches, TACTICAL...

Me and about two people I know my age would say sweet, hell yes I want a garand, all the others say "whats a garand? Hey look at my newest AR15 build".

Advertising via every way possible shapes people into that market. Perfect example is the 6.5 creedmoore explosion. Hornady did good...

Nobody wants to shoot open sight anymore in younger generations. Why? No reason to, we got scopes to be more accurate.

Personally Id love to shoot old military rifles open sight only in a match, but aint got matches like that, but it falls back on younger people not wanting old guns. New cars, new clothes, new sunglasses, new everything, new guns..

Most younger people dont know what an xp100 handgun is... dont know what a palma rifle looks like, etc etc.

Its not a marketed sport.

Tactical is marketed.. PRS, 3 gun..


Just my .02. I dont fall in line with all I said personally. Jmo from a younger perspective..