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The Chicken and the Egg... Again!

Greeting all,

I am new to precision handloading & am trying to figure out my new path. My question here is about which should I focus on first...

Powder load development (using a ladder approach) vs neck turning.


1. Should I take my first serious batch and ignore the necks... letting the die full length size everything and develop my charge and THEN start playing with neck turning?

OR

2. Should I turn the necks of a new batch (I have the tools) and then work up a powder load? - having already addressed one element of precision brass preparation?

OR

3. Other :o

Thanks very much for your advise!

~Robin
 
I think turning necks depends on what you want to do- are you turning necks because you *have* to (e.g., you have you a tight neck chamber) OR are you turning necks because you just want more consistency in the neck itself. It seems like "no-turn" necks are becoming relatively more popular lately. I see a lot of great shooters shooting matches with no-turn brass. Of course, they using high quality brass (generally Lapua) which is fairly consistent to begin with.

IMO, if you can get away with it, I would try loading and shooting with no-turn brass first. Get some good data. Then try the exact same process again with turned (skim turn for consistency unless you have a tight chamber) and compare the results. Half the fun in precision loading is testing small changes and seeing how your results change for the better (or worse). Of course, I'm an unabashed data addict so YMMV.
 
You have not given us nearly enough information. A complete description of the rifle, including chamber specifications (particularly neck diameter), and what has been done to the rifle, as well as the brand of brass that you are using, and what dies you are loading with would be a good start. I have actually known fellows that would start working on loads without bedding the action of a bolt action rifle. IMO this is a serious waste of time, and money. Details please...
 
I wouldn't start turning necks unless you have to because of a custom chamber or you need to because you're using competition dies with bushings.

You didn't state your shooting purpose or goals so I don't know what your expectations are. For precision large range varmint hunting which is my game I'll can share my experiences;

I would start with the conventional procedures of brass preparation purchasing the best brass you can afford. However you can achieive excellent results with new Winchester brass. Trim - Chamfer - Debur the flash hole - Uniform the Pockets would be a good place to start your brass prep.

Sizing is critically important in my opinion for accurate reloads. I like to full size with a shoulder bump approx. .002". Most new reloader often oversize their brass creating too much headspace.

Bullet seating depth can also have a large impact on accuracy - I would start at max SAMMI COL and work back. If this doesn't produce the desire results you can try starting at .20" from the lands and work back. Some rifles shoot more accurately at shorter seating depths. Make sure you check max seating depth of your rifle for each different type / brand of bullet before loading and firing your reloads.

Unless you are shooting some unique wildcat - most calibers have excellent proven powder / bullet combinations that work in most rifles. Lyman, Sierra, and Nosler manuals list "most accurate / recommended powders" which will save you a lot of time and money in load develop. I'd start there.

Of course you need an accurate rifle properly bedded with a quality scope that has been mounted properly before you began. Don't forget the fundamentals of good marksmanship - the most accurate rifle with the most accurate ammo can't make up for poor shooting technique.

I hope this was helpful. Recommend that you pick up a copy of the Lyman Reloading Handbook and read it before attempting to reload. It addresses these issues in detail. Good luck and good shooting.
 
Greetings gents,

Sorry for the delay in my response... lots and lots of family. ;D

My set up, Boyd, is embarrassingly beginner. I own a brand new Rem 700 AAC-SD bedded onto an AICS 2.0 chassis system. The set-up looks solid, but is 'stock' in every way. I am a novice at this, and have never even worked up a load before. But am an older fellow and can follow directions quite well.

So to answer you and Jay, I doubt my chamber is tight in any way and the rifle's receiver has not been blue-printed. My equipment for this will be a T-7 turret press with Redding competition dies, I own a good selection of measurement tools, but no neck trimmer (yet). My powder choice is Varget, and my heads are Hornady A-Max. The brass is Winchester .308. I could go buy 500rnds of Lapua - but want to learn how all these strategies work, and how I can control (however picky) the different features of case prep. So I thought to buy basic brass which needs some TLC.

Thanks very much K22, for your suggestions. I appreciate it!

Thanks indeed to everyone who has responded. I will be sure to have a better 'intro' for questions like this in the future.

All my best!
 
I assume that you want to use the rifle's magazine. One of the first things that I would want to know is the throat length of the chamber. To measure this, I would suggest that you purchase a seating depth measuring tool that Hornady makes. Another of their tools that you should have is what I think that they refer to as a headspace tool. This will be useful for setting the amount of shoulder bump that your FL or body die gives, as well as allowing you to measure a fired case, so that you can compare its shoulder to head dimension to that of the case that you bought to go with the seating depth gauge, to come up with a correction factor. While you are at it, you will probably want an their tool that is used to measure loaded round length off of bullets' ogives, rather than their tips (meplats). For trimming, I would recommend a Wilson trimmer, and the appropriate case holder. You may also want a trimmer base, to raise the trimmer and make it easier to clamp to your bench. Since Lapua brass has such concentric necks, I would do my first load testing with unturned necks. New brass can have too much neck tension, at least in some calibers, so you may want to buy a expander die and mandrel. (Be sure to use lube when you expand, and remove it afterwords.) I would buy the brand that corresponds to the turner that you might wish to purchase, if you decide to go that route. On that subject, I would stay away from turners that are trimmer attachments, and make sure that which ever you choose has a carbide mandrel. Since we don''t know your magazine or throat length, it is difficult to make suggestions about where to start on seating depth, but if you come back with that information, I am sure that some good advice will be forthcoming. Just be sure to give loaded round lengths to the tip of bullets for this part of the project. When I record data, I give both (to tip and from ogive). For setting dies, I use the length from the ogive, because it is more precise. I prefer to start with a seating depth that experience tells me is likely to produce good results, but since that has usually been .006 to .010 longer than touching, and it is likely that your Remington's throat is too long to reach, with bullets seated to magazine length, I am a loss for a starting length. I am sure that others, who have experience with rifles like yours can be more helpful. In any case, I would first do a mini ladder test, starting with a powder that is seems to be popular for your particular bullet and caliber. Back in the day, when I was shooting 168s and 190s in my first CF rifle, a 788 in .308, that powder would have been IMR 4064. These days I would probably try Varget to start, since it is usually easy to come by locally, and do some research on what Vitavuori would be in the same burning range, because I have had such a good experience shooting 133 in my 6PPC, as far as accuracy and level of fouling. There is a long list in the burning rate range that you will be using, and a number that have given one shooter or another with good results. When I shot my combination ladder/pressure test, I would be loading at the range, and initially step my loads by .4 grain, starting in about the middle of the range in a reloading manual, going up till I saw pressure signs, or ran out of room in the case. For this test, I shoot one shot per load, over flags, shooting carefully, from a good rest setup, on the same target, keeping track of where each shot goes. When it is over, I look at the target for any groupings that might indicate a good load range, and load three test rounds with a powder charge in the middle of that range of weights. If that looks promising, I may use that powder weight and start to play around with seating depth, initially with only two shots per setting. If I were trying different amounts of jump, I would probably try longer increments as the jump became greater, to a limit of .005 per change. Once I came up with something that looked promising, I would refine it with smaller adjustments.

One thing that I would consider adding to your rifle is a Jewel trigger. I think that you will really like it. If that is not in your budget I would suggest a spring set for your factory trigger from erniethegunsmith.com.

Shooting small with rifles that kick as much as a .308, loaded with heavy match bullets, requires a different technique than a varmint rifle. It is easy to think that you have a load problem when when the problem is how you are shooting the rifle. Many times I have been able to cut shooters' groups in half, with changes in how the rifle is supported, and held, how the trigger is pulled, and making them aware of the importance of good follow through. I also find that most shooters don't really understand what parallax is, and how to properly adjust their scopes. The reason that I bring this up is that it is easy to fall into the trap of trying to fix everything with load changes.

Above all, have a good time with your new rifle, an don't forget your eye protection. You only get two.

Boyd Allen
 

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