The business side of gunsmithing

[COLT45SA]

I think it's just your nature that you want to lecture people. And you seem to take the conversations into these corrals that you feel you have some expertise and then badger people about it.

I didn't say anybody else's business model is flawed. I didn't comment on anyone's business. I was just talking about payback on equipment. And many of the people that are in business aren't actually in business It's actually a hobby supplemented by their main income.

Long story short, in regards to the actual subject being discussed, which is gunsmithing and business, if a person wants to get into gunsmithing just realize many times they're competing against people that really aren't doing it for a living. Many of them are supplemented by some other income. So you will be competing against them.

I think that if I read the original post correctly, he was asking about running the "business side" of business and not what kind of services he should offer or equipment he should own~!

 

[urbanrifleman]

I think that if I read the original post correctly, he was asking about running the "business side" of business and not what kind of services he should offer or equipment he should own~!

I agree. It's really about the money not the equipment. I don't want someone getting into the business thinking that they need to compete with people that are buying massive amounts of equipment and have brick and mortar facilities that aren't actually being paid for by the business.

I think a lot of people thinking about getting into the business might be totally freaked out when they see another gunsmith that has more equipment than they could ever afford so they think they shouldn't get into the business. It's important that people understand if they plan on their business paying for itself.

 

[urbanrifleman]

I'll give you an example. I recently had someone tell me if I'm going to sell shouldered prefits that I'm going to have to get a laser engraver so that my barrels look as professional as so-and-so's barrels. I simply don't see that laser engraving would pay for itself anytime soon and it does absolutely nothing for the final product. I know there are people that have hobby gunsmith shops and have lasers.

I know that my engraver here who does my barrels when I do batches turned his nose up at my dremel engraving at the end of the tenon. He thought it looked like crap. I've never had a customer who commented on it and I don't know of any customer who cares.

We used to have a philosophy at International Truck. We talked about core business. What is your core business? Is your core business laser engraving and engraving software, or is your core business barrels (for example). Is laser engraving going to make your barrel shoot smaller groups? These are questions that address, I think, true wise business core values.

I think people can spend money on things that aren't their core business and go down rabbit holes that don't make them any money. The goal is to make business decisions to put your money in things that make you money.

 

[Sniperhandle]

I agree. It's really about the money not the equipment. I don't want someone getting into the business thinking that they need to compete with people that are buying massive amounts of equipment and have brick and mortar facilities that aren't actually being paid for by the business.

I think a lot of people thinking about getting into the business might be totally freaked out when they see another gunsmith that has more equipment than they could ever afford so they think they shouldn't get into the business. It's important that people understand if they plan on their business paying for itself.

Dave Tooley has said on many occasions that a 10 to 12 inch lathe is all that's needed to do precision barrel work, Yet most believe you have to have at least a 1440. I know many a quality barrel job has been done on a South Bend Heavy 10. Most Chinese lathes 12 and above can do a High quality job, There are many of them that are 30 years old still turning out great barrels, Enco's, Grizzly's, Birmingham's, Acra's Etc.

Sometimes there is good reason to buy the best tools but many times you can get a pretty high quality tool for a lot less and have more money to equip yourself with even more stuff you will need.

 

[CharlieNC]

Op you should ask Small Business Bureau et al about their resources to address your questions, as many are generic and common to all businesses. It's all about cash flow!

 

[Ggmac]

I spent just about fifty years gunsmithing and still do some. I never made a ton of money at it but did OK. The very best arrangement I ever had was having my shop in a busy gun store to which I paid a fixed percentage. In return for their percentage, the store took in work , collected the money and remitted my share. Although I did a fair amount of gunmaking, my money came from general repairs and alterations. The store got all profits from parts sales and they maintained inventory. I bought my own tooling. Paid the sales staff a commission on work taken in on my behalf. I dealt personally with any customer disputes, which were rare in any case. For a time, I had shops in two stores but this spread me too thin and I had to work harder to cover the cost of my employee gunsmiths. Their idea of a productive day was reading through the Brownells catalog.
During this period (about fifteen years) I worked on an average of about 1800 guns a year. I would re-barrel a couple of rifles per week, Install a dozen recoil pads, Glass bed four or five rifles, install some muzzle brakes. tune up some revolvers, clean and oil a bunch of Remington 1100's, install some chokes, weld some bolt handles, drill and tap some rifles, and so on. Memorable high earning days included one where I did trigger jobs and some repairs on 25 S&W Model 10's for a police department. I charged 30 bucks apiece and did them all in one day. Another day, I re-barrelled six rifles, at 125 bucks apiece, in eight hours. Muzzle brakes were a huge money maker. I charged 100 dollars labor and could usually figure on doing seven or eight in a day. Since this was in the late '80's, I was making good money and I had a large number of regular customers as well as the general hunting public. I always tried to make my money via productivity rather than high pricing or selling unnecessary work. The downside was, for fifteen years, I seldom got to go hunting during prime time.
Today, I make my money from our campground and gunsmith for personal gratification. The gunsmithing landscape has changed a lot over the last thirty years, and I don't think I would want to try making a living at it today. In comparison, the campground is less stressful and I get more exercise!
There are a lot of very good gunsmiths and gunmakers who are also astute businessmen, and who make a very good living at it. Some are members here. I have nothing but admiration for them. WH

Awesome. Very similar to my smithing years . I worked out of 3 shops plus my own . Doing basic repairs , recoil pads , drilling and tapping, sling swivels , blueing , and rebarrelling . Even recut checkering and alot of military conversions .
Didn’t make a fortune but the liability and security got so expensive that it was time to get out . Glad I did It when I did , about 1988. Just seems like yesterday .

 

[AlNyhus]

The late Stan Ware had a very successful business doing high quality hunting, varmint and Benchrest guns. He had several good guidelines as his business model.

Rule #1 was: "Some customers aren't worth having".

 

[DaveTooley]

Dave Tooley has said on many occasions that a 10 to 12 inch lathe is all that's needed to do precision barrel work, Yet most believe you have to have at least a 1440. I know many a quality barrel job has been done on a South Bend Heavy 10. Most Chinese lathes 12 and above can do a High quality job, There are many of them that are 30 years old still turning out great barrels, Enco's, Grizzly's, Birmingham's, Acra's Etc.

Sometimes there is good reason to buy the best tools but many times you can get a pretty high quality tool for a lot less and have more money to equip yourself with even more stuff you will need.

It's the Indian not the arrow.
Yes more expensive machines can make the work easier to do, somewhat faster but doing barrel work isn't rocket science. Example; Jeff Summers, recent inductee into the Benchrest Hall of Fame has done his own work on a Jet 12X36. It's the identical machine I started with. Build volume, build up cash then upgrade when the business can support it. I like small nimble machines. Tooling costs are much less for a small machine. My 10X30 Nardini was by far the best machine I've ever laid hands on.
In my case preparation met opportunity years ago. I currently have two jobs that will keep me busy for much of the next year.

 

[DaveTooley]

The late Stan Ware had a very successful business doing high quality hunting, varmint and Benchrest guns. He had several good guidelines as his business model.

Rule #1 was: "Some customers aren't worth having".

I tell fellow entrepreneurs who complain about customers or PITA jobs.

IT'S OK TO SAY NO.

 

[Sniperhandle]

It's the Indian not the arrow.
Yes more expensive machines can make the work easier to do, somewhat faster but doing barrel work isn't rocket science. Example; Jeff Summers, recent inductee into the Benchrest Hall of Fame has done his own work on a Jet 12X36. It's the identical machine I started with. Build volume, build up cash then upgrade when the business can support it. I like small nimble machines. Tooling costs are much less for a small machine. My 10X30 Nardini was by far the best machine I've ever laid hands on.
In my case preparation met opportunity years ago. I currently have two jobs that will keep me busy for much of the next year.

Yep, And your'e the "Chief"

 

[DaveTooley]

Yep, And your'e the "Chief"

At least you didn't quote PT Barnum

 

[urbanrifleman]

It's the Indian not the arrow.
Yes more expensive machines can make the work easier to do, somewhat faster but doing barrel work isn't rocket science. Example; Jeff Summers, recent inductee into the Benchrest Hall of Fame has done his own work on a Jet 12X36. It's the identical machine I started with. Build volume, build up cash then upgrade when the business can support it. I like small nimble machines. Tooling costs are much less for a small machine. My 10X30 Nardini was by far the best machine I've ever laid hands on.
In my case preparation met opportunity years ago. I currently have two jobs that will keep me busy for much of the next year.

I like small and nimble too. For chambering. I recently spoke to a gentleman that was regretting going to a bigger machine.

Big and beefy for contours.

 

[VA_XTC_Shooter]

I think that if I read the original post correctly, he was asking about running the "business side" of business and not what kind of services he should offer or equipment he should own~!

Correct, looking running a business tips, pointers, pitfalls. Preferably gunsmithing business specific, I know business is business, but each has their own intricacies that can make a difference.

I do not plan to jump in full time right off the bat. Build a shop on my property and work out of it. Plan is to rent my shop from me to separate shop from gunsmithing business for liability reasons, and I am pretty sure it's better on tax side of things.

Work full time at my regular job or hopefully at the gun shop I've been part time for the past year if we can agree on numbers. I wiuld like to use home shop for my niche as well as supplement the main shop that doesn't have machinery (we are pretty general repair type shop for now).

I think I'm in a pretty good position here by not 100% relying on my own shop for income, but still want to learn from those of you that run a shop of your own.

 

[butchlambert]

I know Butch.

I never said there aren't companies using CNC equipment.

White Oak armament? Has he been in business for 35 years? That's quite a while to build up equipment and infrastructure. He does production not gunsmithing. That's a whole different thing.

I was an engineer for 25 years working in assembly and manufacturing. Many of those years in automated machining. I bought lots of equipment in industry, Butch.

Industry isn't gunsmithing.

John started White Oak in 2000 or 23 years ago. John is not a gunsmith? This is a little rolling block that John did for me.
Time in business has nothing to do with purchasing equipment. EC saw that he needed the equipment that he purchased to be able to keep up with demand.
"Industry isn't gunsmithing", who said that? I didn't.

 

[urbanrifleman]

John started White Oak in 2000 or 23 years ago. John is not a gunsmith? This is a little rolling block that John did for me.
View attachment 1458170View attachment 1458172Time in business has nothing to do with purchasing equipment. EC saw that he needed the equipment that he purchased to be able to keep up with demand.
"Industry isn't gunsmithing", who said that? I didn't.

All I have ever seen from White Oak is AR15 barrels and Highpower stuff. If he is doing "gunsmithing" (typical one off custom stuff) it would appear to be a tiny bit of his business. But, you apparently have some channel to that business that no one sees... I knew a guy worked for him and they were running PRODUCTION more than doing one off stuff.

And, of course the gunsmith business has to do with buying equipment. Most of the conversations in THIS "GUNSMITH" FORUM are about equipment.

 

[Sniperhandle]

I like small and nimble too. For chambering. I recently spoke to a gentleman that was regretting going to a bigger machine.

Big and beefy for contours.

slim headstocks and good sized bores are most important to me.

 

[Walt Schmidlin]

I tell fellow entrepreneurs who complain about customers or PITA jobs.

IT'S OK TO SAY NO.

Competed with 4/5 highly successful shooters one of which was an extremely competent pistol smith. He refused to build a new competitive firearm for one of the group. That person complained about every firearm he owned. He firmly believed that on occasion you had to fire a customer (his words). He had a VERY successful operation, one night after a few adult beverages he jokingly commented “he reminds me of my ex”.

 

[DShortt]

I'm gonna kick the hornet's nest here and say that if people would learn what they're seeing with a borescope and learn how to effectively clean and prepare barrels for storage a huge portion of that chambering/rebarreling 'gravy' is going to go away.

This does not include mass production factory rifles. There seems to be no end to the ways high volume manufacturers can find to screw up a barrel. Not always obviously, but far too often. And just because you bought a prechambered barrel from a big name doesn't mean it will be right. Been there, done that, got the tee shirt.

None of the above is directed toward anyone in this thread or on this forum, so don't read anything into this.

 

[Edd]

How many dollars did Chad Dixon spend for equipment?

 

[shortgrass]

Correct, looking running a business tips, pointers, pitfalls. Preferably gunsmithing business specific, I know business is business, but each has their own intricacies that can make a difference.

I do not plan to jump in full time right off the bat. Build a shop on my property and work out of it. Plan is to rent my shop from me to separate shop from gunsmithing business for liability reasons, and I am pretty sure it's better on tax side of things.

Work full time at my regular job or hopefully at the gun shop I've been part time for the past year if we can agree on numbers. I wiuld like to use home shop for my niche as well as supplement the main shop that doesn't have machinery (we are pretty general repair type shop for now).

I think I'm in a pretty good position here by not 100% relying on my own shop for income, but still want to learn from those of you that run a shop of your own.

You need to consult with a tax pro about the renting the shop from yourself thing. You may need to incorporate to do that. Also, there could be zoning issues. You may need to split off the part of the property the shop sits on. Depending on zoning that may or may not be possible. As far as licensing, 07 Manufacture or 01 Dealer. Both have their plus and minuses. Depends on what you plan to do, work with customer supplied serial numbered 'parts', or have the business buy serial numbered 'parts', build a firearm and sell it. State laws vary , so LLC may be an option for you. Setting up a Corp or LLC you can do yourself, without the need of a lawyer. But, you need a lawyer to explain the pluses/minus of each in your state. Other than that, it's timely and accurate record keeping like any other business. ATFE regs aren't difficult, but I am surprised how many can't seem to follow them.