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the be to end all

arguably superior British 7mm round (.280 British, which looks suspiciously like a modern short magnum). [nhm16]

yes, it is a real shame that the .280/30 aka 7X43mm, and in production form, the 7mm Ball Mk1z was abandoned under US Army pressure that insisted the new NATO cartridge had to be .30-cal and give comparable ballistics to the .30-06 M2.

The 7X43mm gave a long high-BC 140gn FMJBT 2,450 fps with the propellants available in the late 1940s. Look at the cartridge and it's near identical to the 7mm BR except it has a bit more case-body taper and a more shallow-angle shoulder to function in magazine weapons. The British EM-2 experimental rifle had a very low full-auto cyclic rate of 120 rpm to keep it controllable, and with the 7mm's light recoil, there is a photograph of the Project Engineer demonstrating it to VIPs by firing it single-handed like a pistol, but on full-auto. Despite that it had an effective range (in machine-guns) of 2,000yd and gave better ballistics than the old .303 British at all ranges. It didn't match the .30-06 M2 ballistically to 1,000yd, but bettered it beyond that range! At 2,000yd it had 100 ft/lbs remaining energy -military cartridge designers assume that 60 ft/lbs is sufficent to inflict serious or fatal injury on a human being (but that was in pre body armour times).

What a target cartridge that would have given us today with modern powders for Target and Fullbore Rifle, Palma Rifle etc! There was an attempt around 15-20 years ago by a couple of British entrepreneurs to revive the design and bring it into production as a light to medium deer cartridge, but nothing came of it - not surprising when you've got .243 Win, 7mm-08 etc already there. What's interesting though is how close 6.8mm Rem SPC is ballistically to the old Brit 7mm, except that the 7mm has a larger diameter and heavier bullet that will have greater lethality.

Something that not many people know (to paraphrase Micheal Caine the actor) is that Great Britain was so brassed off by the US attitude that she went it alone and unilaterally adopted the cartridge, the British Army Council and Defence Ministry adopting the EM-2 as the “Rifle, Automatic, Calibre .280, No.9 Mk1” in April 1951 with the personal support of Labour Prime Minister Clement Attlee. A .280/30 belt-fed GPMG, the ‘Taden gun’ (based on the British WW2 BREN Gun) was also close to adoption. The Americans were appalled and how NATO’s smallarms development would have turned out had this stuck is anyone’s guess!

However, Labour lost the 1952 general election and the new Conservative Prime Minister Winston Churchill (yes, the same Churchill who led Britain in WW2) had a one to one meeting with President Harry S. Truman and backed down on the NATO rifle and cartridge issue to protect the ‘special relationship’. The EM-2 couldn’t handle the T65-E3 (7.62X51mm) cartridge that emerged that year, the various design and production teams were disbanded, the EM-2 project engineer left the UK eventually becoming Winchester’s R&D Director. It was the beginning of the end of Britain’s role as a leading military arms designing and manufacturing country, subsequently adopting the FN FAL as the L1A1 rifle and FN MAG machinegun as the L7A1, both in 7.62mm calibre.

There are question marks over how the EM-2 would have worked out in service as it was a very complicated rifle, but FN had already developed the FAL rifle, the oustanding 1st generation assault rifle, in 7X43mm and it was so fielded in the 1950 NATO smallarms trials and beat all comers. After the British climbdown, FN redesigned it for the 7.62X51mm which added 2lb to the weight and whose recoil and barrel heat generation made full-auto fire impractical -still a fine military rifle, but not as good as it should have been!
 
Laurie,

your knowledge and writing skill is always just incredible to read. I love reading your posts as they are always so full of rare knowledge that would otherwise be hard to find, especially your writings on England.

Thanks for the awesome history lesson

Kenny
 
15Tango said:
1 question what makes the .308 the sniper caliber?
why does the military use it instead of the 6br for example?

I don't see the .308 as a sniper caliber at all, it's a decent hunting cartridge but it has limited range. At 800 yards even a .243 with 105s beats the .308 not only on wind and drop but also energy.

To my knowledge they use it because of compatibility. The military uses a pretty slim choice of standardized calibers. Switching over to the .300 Win. Mag. is the opposite direction they need to be going in my opinion. To get a 30 caliber up to equal speeds of that of a 6.5 or 7MM's BC it takes a hell of a lot of recoil. If they went to something like the 284 Winchester they'd have less recoil, which would aid in accuracy and they'd be giving up nothing in terms of barrel life to the .300 WM and potentially would be delivering more energy and they'd have more margin for error in the 7MM's bullet's BC. To match a 180 VLD in .30 caliber you've got to get into the 220 grain class bullets, good luck getting that up to 2900+ FPS in a .300 WM, even if you do the recoil's double.

I think it'd be smart and take minimal reworking to switch over to the .260 from the .308, the 260 outperforms the .308 by quite a margin and at nearly half the recoil. I suppose that'd happen about the same time as them switching over the M16 to 6.5 Grendel or something - in other words, probably never.

Maybe they'll rethink their decision after some cases get stuck in the field after head separation.

Wayne

Sorry, but a .243 Win with 105 gr pills does not have more energy than a .308 Win with 155 gr, at 800 yards.
 
Hey Laurie,
I was just wondering what sort of sauce goes well with encyclopaedias and should I be drinking a glass of red or white wine with them.
Outstanding reading and a wealth of knowledge.
Thanks for the posts. ;D
 
Laurie,

your knowledge and writing skill is always just incredible to read. I love reading your posts as they are always so full of rare knowledge that would otherwise be hard to find, especially your writings on England.

I always read Laurie's posts in a British accent. 'El-oh, guhv-nah!

Wayne
 
Laurie,
As Kenny said it's always a pleasure to read your posts, very informative and well written.
Wayne.
 
wow now this is a conversation. thanks for responding in such an aggressive manner everybody, it seems this topic might have been in everybody's mind at 1 time or another. i like reading how things could have turned out with all the different calibers. very interesting.

j
 
I really enjoy reading Laurie's posts as well,he is a well read man and ok in my book.Seasons greetings to my British brothers!
 
15Tango said:
That's what high quality stocks and muzzle brakes are for

That only does so much. According to the Wiki article, that British AWM is over 15 Lbs, double that of the M24 or M16. It makes me wonder if the Brits somehow treat it as crew served or something to try and divide up that weight somehow.

Even with the M16 after about mile 8 it starts to suck pretty bad and the M16A2 is well balanced with its pencil barrel - the more barrel weight out front makes it hard on your support arm after that long and cramps start. Every ounce starts to matter after that long and I can't imagine trying to carry a 15 lbs rig around like that. Heck, most people out at the firing line we see have a hard time with getting their rifles from the car to the line let alone double digit ruck marches with full IBA W/plates, ACH, assault packs etc.

When I got home after handling that M16 I couldn't believe how heavy my high-power rifle AR15 with HBAR 20" barrel was - the difference in barrel weight alone was enough to make me wonder how bad it would suck carrying that vs the M16 with the thin barrel.

They probably would have been better off going with the .30-06 instead of the .300WM - the .30-06 probably has better inherent accuracy (no belt, not so over-bore) and it does a fine job with heavy bullets and it's probably a bit more efficient and it doesn't give much up to the .300WM in terms of range. It's an old dog and not a fancy magnum but with today's technology in bullets and powder Old Yeller seems to be learning some new tricks. German S. seems to like it.

Wayne


I read the biography of Carlos in Nam. As I recall he was shooting a 300 win mag.. But I could be remembering it wrong. My son has the book now so I can't verify it..
 
jraney,
I have three of the 7-08s and I like them very much. Great deer cartridge and it will work for elk.
Wayne.
 

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