Test results for the Berger 185 & 200 grain Hybrids

[G. Ruff]

I had the opportunity to test these new bullets and am quite impressed with the 185's. The 200's, not so much.

The 185's were shot from a built Remington 700 with a 10" twist Hart Max HV contour @ 27" length, bedded into a McMillan A2 stock. The chamber is a modified M852 cut for Sierra Matchkings with a cartridge OAL of 2.810". The scope is a Sightron SIII 6-24x50mm mil-dot, Leupold Mk4 30mm rings and a custom 1-piece base with 20 moa built in.

Initial loads were made using Hornady match brass, Federal 210M primers, and Alliant Reloder 17 powder. Five rounds each from 43 grains to 46 grains, in 0.5 grain increments. I don't have access to a chronograph, and have never relied on one. As a tactical shooter, performance down range means more to me than numbers a few feet from the muzzle. Accuracy at 100 yards was sub-moa for all loads. 45 gr and 45.5 grains showed the smallest groups at 1/2". Bolt lift on the 45.5 grain loads was a little stiff with some flattening of primers. Bolt was really stiff on the 46 grain load with flattened and cratered primers. No ejector marks, but some shiny rub marks on the case heads were present. I only fired them twice as I deemed them too hot. I then loaded 50 rounds at 45.2 grains to test at distance. 10 rounds were used to verify zero at 100 yards. Five round test group measured .43", or just under 1/2 moa. That's about typical with this rifle.

By this time, the temperature had climbed into the mid 90's and the wind had picked up. A 3 to 5 mph fish-tailling wind with gusts to 7 or 8 mph is not the best environment to test bullets at distance. Throw in mirage that equates to looking through the aerator of a fish tank and you'll appreciate what I was up against.

My ballistics program showed that this load should run about 2700 fps, so I dialed in 15 minutes of elevation for 600 yards and fired a few shots. I could hear hits, but couldn't see them. I added 1 minute more and fired 1 shot and saw the hit. Dialed back down and fired the 5th shot.

As you can see, less than 1 " of vertical at 600 (not counting the one) not too bad at all. The same accuracy was realized at 800, 900, and 1000 yards.

This was at 800 yards. The 900 yard group was similar, but I guess I moved the camera before it captured because all I got was grass. LOL

This is the 1000 yard group. Yes, there are 5 shots there. BTW, the black area of the targets are 1 moa. I will be ordering more of these when they become available.

 

[G. Ruff]

In my first post, I hinted that the 200 grain hybrids didn't perform well. Two different rifles were used. The first was a factory Remington 700P in .300 Win Mag. Scope was a Sightron SII 24x44mm Target Dot with Burris Signature ZEE rings and a custom 20 moa 1-piece base. The second rifle was a Remington Sendero bedded into a McMillan HTG stock with a Leupold Vari-X III 4-12x40mm duplex with Mk4 rings and a custom 1-piece base. Both rifles shoot sub-moa with loads using 190 gr SMK's and Berger 210 VLD's.

The initial loads were using Winchester brass, Federal 215M primers, and Alliant Reloder 22 powder in .5 grain increments from 72 grains to 75 grains. All were seated to 3.6" cartridge OAL for fitting into the magazines. None of the loads would group better than 3 moa at 100 yards. After checking all the usual suspects to make sure nothing was mechanically wrong, I fired some 210 VLD's out of both rifles. I got a .7" group with the 700P and a .9" group with the Sendero, which is typical. I have 35 of these bullets left over and I plan to try some in my .308. As it stands, my .300's don't like them.

 

[Will]

Great test from a class act shooter !!! Glad to know that the RL 17 works in something besides 200+ gr bullets. May have to try them with Scenars. Good report. Thanks Gene !!

 

[G. Ruff]

Thanks, Will. I had the choice of using the RL-17 or some VV N550 or Winchester 760. I chose the RL-17 because I had more of it on hand. I'll probably use some N550 in Lapua brass when I test the 200's in the .308. Good seeing you at the match Saturday.

 

[kgunz11]

Just about everybody I know has abandoned the Re-17 because of it's temperature sensitivity. Like the other Re powders, it proves to be real accurate on a given day in a certain temperature range. When the temps swing 20-30 degrees in either direction you've either dropped out of the accuracy node or start blowing primers. We haven't sold any Re-17 in over a year now since it's become common knowledge that it is more temperature sensitive than we were first told.

 

[ScottyB]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I was hoping to find out whether you had any luck with the 200s in your 308, and if so what loads you tried. I'm in the process of debating whether to order a box to try, or just stick with the 185s.

Thanks for taking the time to share your results.

Scott

 

[jbpmidas]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I was hoping to find out whether you had any luck with the 200s in your 308, and if so what loads you tried. I'm in the process of debating whether to order a box to try, or just stick with the 185s.

Thanks for taking the time to share your results.

Scott

Not the OP, but I am in the middle of load work up for the 200 Hybrids. I tried the 185's also, but better results were realized on the 200's in my ladder test. My ladder was only 200 yards. My rifle is a 700 with Brux 10 twist barrel. I loaded .010 off. I loaded 10 rounds at .2 increments from 39.2 to 41.0 grains of Varget using 1x fired, prepped Winchester brass with Wolf primers. The entire ladder test measured just under 1.5". I fired 4 consecutive rounds that were .550. Those powder charges were 40.2 to 40.6. I am hoping to be in the 25-2550 range but will chronograph when I fire 5 shot groups of each of those loads next time.

 

[ScottyB]

I'll be using a 10 twist Broughton 5C so I'm assuming my velocities will be close to what you're getting. According to JBM it looks like anything north of 2500 will stay supersonic at 1000y so I'm curious to see how you make out. Please keep us posted on what your chrony has to say!

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Scotty,

Look here - 308 win data *CAUTION long throated barrel*

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php/topic,3770406.msg35980705.html#msg35980705

If you are running a shorter throat, or thicker brass, the charges would have to be reduced significantly, but 2600 is possible with the 200 in a 26" barrel.

Be safe, start low!

Keith

 

[jbpmidas]

I'll be using a 10 twist Broughton 5C so I'm assuming my velocities will be close to what you're getting. According to JBM it looks like anything north of 2500 will stay supersonic at 1000y so I'm curious to see how you make out. Please keep us posted on what your chrony has to say!

I will update as I get more information. I'm hoping to load my test groups and try them Friday morning.

 

[ScottyB]

Scotty,

Look here - 308 win data *CAUTION long throated barrel*

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php/topic,3770406.msg35980705.html#msg35980705

If you are running a shorter throat, or thicker brass, the charges would have to be reduced significantly, but 2600 is possible with the 200 in a 26" barrel.

Be safe, start low!

Keith

Thanks Keith.

My barrel is going to be chambered to shoot either the 185s or 200s at somewhere near 3.015 COAL (my current COAL to the lands with 185 VLDs). I'm just waiting to hear back from Berger on how different the shapes are to determine whether I need wait on some of the hybrids to come in or whether I can chamber based on a round loaded with a 185 VLD.

Hopefully between the right throat and the 30" pipe I can work up to the velocities they were seeing.

Scott

 

[Laurie]

Scott,

here's a table I've done for a magazine article that has a first look at the .30 Hybrids and which compares them to the BTLRs which is a more valid comparison for shank length and ogive position than against VLDs.

Generally, Berger VLDs have a longer comparator based COAL than the same weight BTLR in my experience. Note the Comp. COAL for the 190gn VLD is 2.390" v 2.360" for the BTLR seated on the same basis with the bottom of the shank / bearing surface at the neck to shoulder junction, so you need 30 thou' extra freebore with the VLD all other things being the same.

You'll note from the table - doing a copy + paste from WORD doesn't line the columns up, you'll have to count along - the Hybrids generally need a lot less freebore than the existing bullet types. This is particularly so with the 185gn Hybrid that needs around 70 thou' less freebore than the same weight BTLR at the same position in the case. I would reckon that likely equates to a 100 thou reduction over the 190 VLD, a full tenth of an inch.

Although I've quoted COALs (for magazine rifle users), it's the Comp. COAL that really matters here - that is what the callipers and thirty cal comparator insert read.

Laurie,
York, England


Table 3
BTLR v Hybrid Comparisons

Weight / Model BC (G7) BC Index BSL Ideal COAL Comp. COAL Optimal Twist Rate
155.5gn BT Fullbore 0.237 100 0.265” 2.855” 2.15” 1-13”
155gn Hybrid 0.247 104 0.278” 2.835” 2.135” 1-12”

168gn Hybrid 0.266 112 0.294” 2.845” 2.145” 1-12”

185gn BTLR 0.283 119 0.360” 2.940” 2.280” 1-12”
185gn Hybrid 0.291 123 0.395” 2.950” 2.210” 1-11”

200gn Hybrid 0.320 135 0.450” 3.050” 2.305” 1-11”
210gn BTLR 0.320 135 0.481” 3.055” 2.360” 1-11”
210gn VLD 0.323 136 0.592” 3.075” 2.390” 1-11”
215gn Hybrid 0.356 150 0.419”* 3.105” 2.355” 1-10”
230gn Hybrid 0.380 160 0.495”* 3.200” 2.435” 1-10”

Notes
BSL = Bearing Surface Length (Shank length). Data from Bryan Litz’s book Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting 2nd edition except for the 215 and 230gn Hybrids from Berger Bullets’ Quick Reference Sheet and marked so: * . This pair looks to be quoted too short in relation to the other bullets.

‘Ideal COAL’ and Comp. COAL refer to measured cartridge lengths with a bullet seated so the shank to boat-tail junction coincides with the neck/shoulder junction on the case. COAL is the resulting overall length of the cartridge, ‘Comp COAL’ is as measured from the case-head to the ogive using callipers and a Hornady bullet comparator body / .30 cal insert. Some people may wish to chamber their barrels with longer freebore so the bullet sits higher in the case-neck to maximise capacity. The purpose of the ‘Comp COAL’ value is to give a feel for how the different bullets stack up on the required amount of freebore. Bullet seating positions were obtained in a fairly crude manner using a second bullet held alongside the case exterior for comparison, so these values should be treated as a rough guide only.

Optimal twist rates are as supplied by Berger Bullets and will provide full stability in all normal meteorological conditions down to dry freezing air at sea level and at standard velocities. A slightly slower twist will often work in ideal conditions (high temperatures and humidity at altitudes above sea level).

 

[ScottyB]

Laurie,

Thanks so much for taking the time to pass on your findings.

A thought occured to me while reading through the chart that I'd welcome your thoughts on; in the absence of a sample of either the 185 or 200 hybrid would it be conceivable to seat a 185VLD so that the Comp COAL matched what you indicated for the hybrids at the ogive?

I can get the hybrids in if needed (which I'm sure is the right thing to do), I'm just trying to avoid having to spend the extra money in advance of the barrel showing up at the smith, if possible.

Cheers,

Scott

 

[Laurie]

Scott,

it's very difficult, 'iffy' as we'd say here, to extrapolate readings between types with different shapes. You could do it crudely, but I'd really recommend getting hold of some bullets if you're having the rifle rebarrelled.

As I said in my previous post, the 185 Hybrid looks as if it'll need a shorter chamber than similar weight bullets. That would suggest that a chamber throated specifically for it will be sub-optimal for many other mid-weight, never mind heavy bullets such as the pre-hybrid 210s. That's not to say they won't work, only you'd have to seat them much more deeply than you'd like.

You could buy a box each of 185 and 200s and ask your gunsmith to throat the barrel based on compromise seating positions that give a common Comp. COAL, ie the 200 marginally deep, or the 200 just right and the 185 seated higher with its shank not fully down to the bottom of the neck. That would still let you use most other bullets up to 185gn ..... and if you don't like this pair when you try them under real shooting conditions, you can always go back to the gunsmith and ask him to use a throating reamer to increase the freebore to suit the 190 VLD, 210 VLD & BTLR, and the heavier pair of Hybrids, or equivalent bullets from Jlk and Hornady. As I learned the hard way in basic woodworking, you can nearly always take more material off, but once off it can't be replaced.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Hi Laurie,

I was just looking over your numbers for the 200 gr hybrid, and I think that you might be mistaken.

From Litz's book and Berger's reference sheet, The 200 hybrid has an ogive length of .825 and a bearing surface of .450

If we subtract both of those from the OAL of 3.050 that you give, I get 1.775" That is .060 ahead of the shoulder-neck junction on my reamer print.

Does that make any sense?

I am using this right now,

200 grn hybrid OAL 2.997" Comp. 2.267" Base of bearing surface is at 1.722 (reamer print shows 1.718")

For my next barrel, I'm going just a touch longer to OAL 3.015, Comp. 2.282" - I'm pushing the bullet away from the donut area slightly with a tighter neck.

 

[Laurie]

Busdriver,

I've just rechecked the inert round I made up with the 200 and the readings I took, and no mistake.

This is the bullet seated with its base right on the case-body to shoulder junction line which puts the bottom of the shank / BS more or less level with the case-shoulder to neck junction, in this case as one of the heavier models with a longer tail section the bottom of the BS is fractionally above the junction, but only by a very small amount.

One can of course seat the bullet less deeply in the neck - around 0.15" of grip will suffice and as the neck on a trimmed .308W case is around 0.29" long that moves the bullet out by a bit over a tenth of an inch compared to my figures.

The other thing to note is that a bullet comparator is just what the name suggests - it compares settings. The point on the bullet shoulder that the comparator insert seats against should be close to being in the rifling, but I've no idea how the resulting reading from the case-head to that datum line stacks up against freebore values on a reamer drawing. The reamer drawing injects other variables - I'm working off a sized case, while the reamer's chamber length to the mouth of the neck section will be longer for safety reasons - ie what's shown as freebore must logically start ahead of 2.015" SAAMI case-length + whatever SAAMI / the reamer designer adds in as extra length to the chamber.

The idea of the table was to allow comparison of the Hybrids against existing bullets seated in an inert round using the same methodology. The 155.5, 185 BTLR and 210gn VLD Bergers are very well known here in the UK and many F/TR rifles have been throated specifically for one of the trio.

So, the 200gn Hybrid needs around 55 thou' less freebore than a 210gn BTLR and 85 thou' less than a 210 VLD seated to the same point.

The lighter bullets with shorter boat-tail sections were seated with the bearing surface section at the neck-shoulder junction and their bases will be a little above the case-body to shoulder junction as a result. The 155 Hybrid needs around 15 thou' less than the 155.5 on this basis, and the 168 needs around 5 thou' less which is neither here nor there. So my conclusion for this pair is that anybody whose chamber is optimally throated for the 155.5 should find these two Hybrids a very good match for it. Howver, anybody with a chamber throated 'long' for the 185 BTLR with the bullet already seated shallow in the case will find that the 185 Hybrid is going to have to make a very long jump, and that the 200 Hybrid would be a better match in this respect.

This takes no account of rifling twist requirements of course which is a separate issue.

 

[jbpmidas]

I got some excellent results this morning from these two bullets. It was raining so I didn't set up the chronograph. My best 200 Hybrid group put 4 into .373 at 200 yards. I pulled the 5th and final shot almost an inch out of the group. I must say I was quite nervous looking at the first 4 in what looked like one hole from 200 yards away. I'm pretty new at this type of shooting and this is my first time shooting a rifle this capable. I also had trouble with my rest set up. I was shooting off of a bench with my Sinclair Tactical bipod and a rear bag. When I go back to verify loads I will use a different rest set up. Another load with the 200 Hybrid put 3 out of the 5 into .373, with the 4th at .721 and the 5th at 1.1". The 185's did not do quite as well, but I shot them second and was cold and wet. One of these loads put 3 into .235 with the other 2 opening the group up to around 1.5". The last mentionable was the 185 again with 3 in .446. All loads were Varget and .010 off the lands. The barrel is a 28", 10 twist Brux in a Remington 700 action.

 

[wboggs]

Hi Laurie
I certainly do enjoy your posts, some of the best on the site.
I have a 30" krieger barrel in 30-06 coming in Jan-Feb and I plan to build a rifle around the Berger 215 Hybrid. After consulting with Germain Salazar, I chose the Serengeti reamer from Pacific.
Will watch your posts with interest and post my initial results in a couple of months after I have the rifle together. I have high expectations for this rifle in a caliber I have been shooting for almost 65 years. The 06 is a nostalgic choice for me and I'm anxious to see what it will do.
Thanks again for your detailed and time consuming work.
Bill

 

[Laurie]

Bill,

thank you for the kind words.

Re .30-06:

I have a 30" krieger barrel in 30-06 coming in Jan-Feb and I plan to build a rifle around the Berger 215 Hybrid. After consulting with Germain Salazar, I chose the Serengeti reamer from Pacific.
Will watch your posts with interest and post my initial results in a couple of months after I have the rifle together. I have high expectations for this rifle in a caliber I have been shooting for almost 65 years. The 06 is a nostalgic choice for me and I'm anxious to see what it will do.

It's funny you should say this as it mirrors my view of the cartridge. My first ever centrefire rifle was a well-used (and some !!) Springfield M1903 that had been rebarrelled a 1943 dated SA tube. Since it had Chinese characters pressed into the buttstock I've always assumed it had been refurbished during the war and sent to Generalissimo Chiang Kai-Sheck's army by the US government, ended up in Taiwan after Mao's lot took over, and came to the UK from there. (or, maybe it was refurbished by SA after the war and sent to Chiang's people as part of US support after the commie takeover of the mainland?)

Anyway, it shot very well with Lapua 185 D46s and Viht N160 which had just been introduced here at that time despite a terribly pitted bore, and gave me a great affection for the old Oh-Six.

I have a budget 'bitzer' F Class rifle that a gunsmith friend built out of his spare parts bin - only the Ken Farrell scope rail and bedding were new - years back in the early days of F when anything and everything with a scope on top was suitable. it has a Winchester Enfield P'14 or M1917 action with a 0.303" P'14 bolt insatalled and what had been a .308 Win Maddco (Australian button rifled) Palma barrel rechambered to .300 H&H Magnum, a super-long number which cleaned the old throat area out fully. It shot quite well but soon became uncompetitive and the barrel is now finished. So, another gunsmith friend has found a scrap M1917 .30-06 to get a suitable bolt and the rifle will be returned to .30-06, German Salazars' 'Serengeti' reamer also being used here. What is different in my case is that the rifle doesn't merit an expensive barrel from Krieger, Bartlein or whoever, so it's getting a Spanish Bergara 26" 1-10" job that has the Remington VSSF etc external profile and cost a bit under half that of a US made blank. I'm looking forward to playing with it next year.

Have a good holiday and good shooting in 2012.

Laurie

 

[jbpmidas]

I got to do some chronographing yesterday. I shot the 185 Hybrids over 42.9, 43.0, and 43.1 Varget with Wolf LR primers in Winchester 3x fired, prepped brass. I fired the 200 Hybrids in the same brass with 40.4 and 41.0 Varget. I am using a Brux 1:10, 28" barrel installed by Dixie Precision Rifles. I was disappointed in the velocity of the 200's. The averages were 2454 fps for the 40.4 and 2495 fps for the 41.0. I may try some testing above 41.0 to see if I can get a little more velocity. I was, however, well pleased with the velocity on the 185's. The 42.9 averaged 2680 fps. The 43.0 was a little slower at 2665 fps, but noticeably more accurate. The 43.1 was about the same as the 42.9 at 2672 fps. I will do more extensive testing with the 43.0 and play with seating depth some. All of these loads were -.010". Incidentally, the most accurate of the loads, the 43.0 Varget under the 185's exhibited an ES of 13 over the 5 shot group. My next testing on the 185's with this charge of Varget will be at least 10 rounds.

As an aside, I was surprised at the price jump in the Bergers. Last I checked they were about $43 per 100, now they are around $50. Where are you finding the best prices? Does Berger plan on selling the Hybrids in bulk packs?