Teslong borescope -- What It Reveals Can Bug You

[L.Sherm]

I do not know one Short Range Benchrest Shooter that does not use bronze brushes. And lots of them.

Jackie im pretty sure I watched a YouTube video Eric made about how Speedy cleans his barrels and he mentioned only using Isso Nylon brushes.
Maybe he's changed i don't know, it was the video about how he applied lock ease also

 

[JFrank]

I spend more time looking at targets than my bore, but when I do use my teslong it is check for firecracking

I look at a lot of targets as well, all winter long while others are home in front of a fire clipping their toenails.
I think a little common sense goes along ways when cleaning a barrel, each person seems to find a path that fits his of her program rather than all under one blanket, I mentioned before that I along with about every one I know has a shelf full of products, they all do something, some just more than others and only a scope will tell you the that.

Order Dewey no harm bronze brushes.

Thanks I’ll look into that new magic… I typically put a good dab of oil on a bronze brush and go at it but hundreds of passes with any bronze brush is likely to take its toll.
Thx
J

 

[L.Sherm]

I do use bronze from time to time rest of the time I use Isso or Montana extreme Nylon brushes. My teslong shows I'm getting the carbon out.

 

[K22]

Not due to lack of performance or functionality of the borescope. Rather, it has revealed that while my copper removal program is working well, getting the carbon out isn’t. Thus, it has caused me to spend the last 2 days removing carbon from a few rifles. C4, a bronze brush, and a little patience does the trick.

It does leave me wondering, however, about the old saying of “out of sight, out of mind”. Or in other words a “solution looking for a problem”.

I am sure some fellows, maybe a lot, will tell you what you did is necessary for ultimate accuracy. I am not one of them. I am not an "expert", just someone who has been in the game for 50+ years. In addition, my reloading and shooting goals are at the varmint grade precision level but not the bench rest level.

So, after qualifying my baseline and after trying a bunch of elaborate to extreme suggestions from "experts", I found that over cleaning such as you described does nothing but created first shot flyers, requires several shots to re-establish desired POI, and adds time and frustration to what should be, a rather simple process of cleaning your rifle to keep it serviceable condition. Not to mention the chance of damaging the bore / crown from the extreme / excessive number of strokes.

With that said, in my experience, all you need to do is clean on a regularly basis with a simple solvent such as Hoppe's 9 or Shooter Choice and a bronze brush. But as Hondo Lane once said, "A Man has to do what he thinks is best".

 

[Tommie]

A bore scope allows a person to get the rifle bore squeaky clean. Then the rifle will need fouling shots to work right.

Enjoy yourself.

 

[jelenko]

I spend more time looking at targets than my bore, but when I do use my teslong it is check for firecracking

Order Dewey no harm bronze brushes.

My understanding is the 'no harm' means the brush's core is safe for the bore; not that the bronze bristles are any safer.

 

[ELR LVR]

With a 30 caliber barrel the bullet is .308 the bore is .300, it's riding on the complete bore no matter what you or I do. How does an oversized bullet get down the barrel only touching the high spots that you or I left?

Think of this in terms of microscopic surface finish, nothing can ever be perfectly flat or smooth
only relatively flat or smooth, such as 1/5 inch deviation over 1 mile or
someones skin may even appear to be very smooth, but if you magnify it, it is bumpy with lines & ridges.


Surface roughness is the measurement of the relative smoothness of a surface’s profile, calculated via the microscopic deviations in a surface's true form.

is the .308 bore actually 3079995" with micro surface imperfections that reach .3080005"?
and the measurement is averaged to .308
there is really no way to measure this, with what most of us have, but can be seen.
One can simply take a jewellers loupe of 30x power and look in the muzzle and see surface imperfections
I can see longitudinal striations in my cut barrels from the cutting process.
is it a big deal? no
I just try to get a better "AVERAGE" surface finish on mine with lapping
for instance, you may not see a difference from an 800 grit lapped finish to a 1500 grit finish
but there is a difference, the indentations, or striations will be less deep once the high spots are taken down and averaged out over the whole length of the surface.
I tend to impart the finish "I LIKE" that I found works well
Like I mentioned before a time or two
The military may call for a 64 micron finish in the bore, while Krieger may lap there's to a finer 32 micron.
below is a pic depicting what I am talking about
A fine barrel doesnt take much and can probably be left alone
When I lap, I am more looking for that one tight spot than anything. But also more or less
Burnishing the surface, which is what so called "Breaking in a Barrel does"
when your bullet rides down the bore, it is touching or riding on the high spots
---the low spots dont get touched
Why?
Because the high spots swage the bullet down, the bullet doesn't expand like a balloon to fill in the low areas.
Maybe think of this more like a finely sand-blasted surface.
where the beads smacked the surface, are low areas which would not get touched by the bullet.
---
the more we remove the high spots, the more we approach a mirror smooth surface, the more the low spots become exposed as the new surface.
and the more a barrel will strip copper off a bullet.
---
Lapping is something that takes some knowledge of what you are doing to the surface.
some experimentation and much patience and repeated testing.
I have brought some questionable factory barrels back to life by this.
(Pitted, rusty, 100 yrs old, etc)
I have not yet messed up a barrel. ( I dont get "Lap Happy")
I merely "refine them" to a finer degree
I would also not expect a barrel maker to warranty their barrel after I did my thing to it if I went too far.
this is my own choice to modify my barrels how I like. same as how I cut them, crown them etc.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Think of this in terms of microscopic surface finish, nothing can ever be perfectly flat or smooth
only relatively flat or smooth, such as 1/5 inch deviation over 1 mile or
someones skin may even appear to be very smooth, but if you magnify it, it is bumpy with lines & ridges.


Surface roughness is the measurement of the relative smoothness of a surface’s profile, calculated via the microscopic deviations in a surface's true form.

is the .308 bore actually 3079995" with micro surface imperfections that reach .3080005"?
and the measurement is averaged to .308
there is really no way to measure this, with what most of us have, but can be seen.
One can simply take a jewellers loupe of 30x power and look in the muzzle and see surface imperfections
I can see longitudinal striations in my cut barrels from the cutting process.
is it a big deal? no
I just try to get a better "AVERAGE" surface finish on mine with lapping
for instance, you may not see a difference from an 800 grit lapped finish to a 1500 grit finish
but there is a difference, the indentations, or striations will be less deep once the high spots are taken down and averaged out over the whole length of the surface.
I tend to impart the finish "I LIKE" that I found works well
Like I mentioned before a time or two
The military may call for a 64 micron finish in the bore, while Krieger may lap there's to a finer 32 micron.
below is a pic depicting what I am talking about
A fine barrel doesnt take much and can probably be left alone
When I lap, I am more looking for that one tight spot than anything. But also more or less
Burnishing the surface, which is what so called "Breaking in a Barrel does"
when your bullet rides down the bore, it is touching or riding on the high spots
---the low spots dont get touched
Why?
Because the high spots swage the bullet down, the bullet doesn't expand like a balloon to fill in the low areas.
Maybe think of this more like a finely sand-blasted surface.
where the beads smacked the surface, are low areas which would not get touched by the bullet.
---
the more we remove the high spots, the more we approach a mirror smooth surface, the more the low spots become exposed as the new surface.
and the more a barrel will strip copper off a bullet.
---
Lapping is something that takes some knowledge of what you are doing to the surface.
some experimentation and much patience and repeated testing.
I have brought some questionable factory barrels back to life by this.
(Pitted, rusty, 100 yrs old, etc)
I have not yet messed up a barrel. ( I dont get "Lap Happy")
I merely "refine them" to a finer degree
I would also not expect a barrel maker to warranty their barrel after I did my thing to it if I went too far.
this is my own choice to modify my barrels how I like. same as how I cut them, crown them etc.

Hmmm. I wonder if I can generate 65,000psi if I put a copper clad, lead core bullet in a vise and hit it with a sledge hammer. If I could, would it swell up a bit like a balloon? I can bet ya it won't look like it did before I smacked it with that much force!
So, what happens to a bbl, a pressure vessel, when it attempts to contain 65,000psi? Well, it swells, kinda like a balloon, too. That stretching of the bbl is exactly the very basis for how the old Pressure Trace system worked. They used a strain gauge to convert that stretch to current that it graphed on your computer monitor for you. Now I'm not a smart man but pressures that expand 1.250 heat treated stainless...I'm guessing here...can also expand a copper clad piece of lead traveling down that swelled up bbl, too.

I'm not saying you want tight and loose spots in the bore at all, but I am challenging your logic you posted above. The bbl swells and the bullet obturates(expands) to fit the new bore. In fact, you can see primer ignition as well as bullet exit on a Pressure Trace. I'm throwing down my bullshat coin on that part and agreeing that ya want a smooth bore diameter, from end to end. The RF guys tend to want the bbl choked at the muzzle a tenth or so but even they have some "built in choke" due to the expansion near the breech and less toward the muzzle as pressures drop. But I will say rf vs cf is apples and oranges in terms of how much muzzle pressure is still available. I know that cf can be 5-8000psi at the muzzle. I don't remember rf numbers but I wouldn't be surprised at all if muzzle pressure is well down into the hundreds of psi on them. So, very different but same principle.

Bottom line, a PT can pick up on a sr rifle primer stretching a 1.250 bbl and you're saying that the bullet doesn't expand like a balloon at 65000psi. That's where I toss my bs coin out there. So, show me please.

 

[Tesoro]

My understanding is the 'no harm' means the brush's core is safe for the bore; not that the bronze bristles are any safer.

True but I think the quality of their bronze bristles is superior and usa sourced metals. I have never seen damage from their brushes. Who knows what else in the chicom 'bronze' in other brands. Copper is expensive.

 

[ELR LVR]

Hmmm. I wonder if I can generate 65,000psi if I put a copper clad, lead core bullet in a vise and hit it with a sledge hammer. If I could, would it swell up a bit like a balloon? I can bet ya it won't look like it did before I smacked it with that much force!
So, what happens to a bbl, a pressure vessel, when it attempts to contain 65,000psi? Well, it swells, kinda like a balloon, too. That stretching of the bbl is exactly the very basis for how the old Pressure Trace system worked. They used a strain gauge to convert that stretch to current that it graphed on your computer monitor for you. Now I'm not a smart man but pressures that expand 1.250 heat treated stainless...I'm guessing here...can also expand a copper clad piece of lead traveling down that swelled up bbl, too.

I'm not saying you want tight and loose spots in the bore at all, but I am challenging your logic you posted above. The bbl swells and the bullet obturates(expands) to fit the new bore. In fact, you can see primer ignition as well as bullet exit on a Pressure Trace. I'm throwing down my bullshat coin on that part and agreeing that ya want a smooth bore diameter, from end to end. The RF guys tend to want the bbl choked at the muzzle a tenth or so but even they have some "built in choke" due to the expansion near the breech and less toward the muzzle as pressures drop. But I will say rf vs cf is apples and oranges in terms of how much muzzle pressure is still available. I know that cf can be 5-8000psi at the muzzle. I don't remember rf numbers but I wouldn't be surprised at all if muzzle pressure is well down into the hundreds of psi on them. So, very different but same principle.

Bottom line, a PT can pick up on a sr rifle primer stretching a 1.250 bbl and you're saying that the bullet doesn't expand like a balloon at 65000psi. That's where I toss my bs coin out there. So, show me please.

I would agree the base of the bullet expands due to pressure applied to it filling the general ID of the bore
but without filing in the microscopic indentations or striations on the surface, more so, following the smallest part of the ID of the bore and remaining tight to that.
but not exactly the whole length of the bullet expanding.... "Like a Balloon"
I do not believe the WHOLE BULLET itself expands, just a certain portion of the base.
---
We should also agree, pressure does not instantly jump to 65,000 psi
it builds over time as the bullet is moving and accelerating being pushed by the pressure
---
Pressure can be thought of as "resistance to movement"
we can read 65,000 PSI on the barrel because it is not moving away from the pressure

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I would agree the base of the bullet expands due to pressure applied to it filling the general ID of the bore
but without filing in the microscopic indentations or striations on the surface, more so, following the smallest part of the ID of the bore and remaining tight to that.
but not exactly the whole length of the bullet expanding.... "Like a Balloon"
I do not believe the WHOLE BULLET itself expands, just a certain portion of the base.
---
We should also agree, pressure does not instantly jump to 65,000 psi
it builds over time as the bullet is moving and accelerating being pushed by the pressure
---
Pressure can be thought of as "resistance to movement"
we can read 65,000 PSI on the barrel because it is not moving away from the pressure

And...
I'm not even claiming to know but it sure seems like a pressure that expands thick arse hardened steel would expand lead with a little piece of copper wrapped around it.

You didn't answer my question but we can move on.

 

[ELR LVR]

And...
I'm not even claiming to know but it sure seems like a pressure that expands thick arse hardened steel would expand lead with a little piece of copper wrapped around it.

You didn't answer my question but we can move on.

I''ll try again
if you, held a bullet by a string and - smacked the base with a hammer like you mentioned
only the base would deform, from momentary inertia until the bullet began to move, correct?
---
Also, regarding the bullet vs Bore
is the pressure - Inside of the bullet like it is inside of the bore?
or is the pressure actually trying to surround and overcome past the bullet?
---
If we drilled a small hole into the bullet, I would then agree the whole length of the bullet expands like a balloon
---
Anyway, regardless of what portion or length of the base of the bullet does expand...
My main point being.......the bullet will ride along the "Surface" of the bore.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I''ll try again
if you, held a bullet by a string and smacked the base with a hammer like you mentioned
only the base would deform, from momentary inertia until the bullet began to move, correct?
---
Also, regarding the bullet vs Bore
is the pressure - Inside of the bullet like it is inside of the bore?
or is the pressure actually trying to surround and overcome past the bullet?
---
If we drilled a small hole into the bullet, I would then agree the whole length of the bullet expands like a balloon

No and No....The bbl is just like a hydraulic cylinder with a TINY PERCENTAGE of leak by. And NO, it's not like hitting a bullet on a string. If it was, we wouldn't build pressure.

Come on man! I've given you way more credit than this crap! Your replies are wayy out in lala land on this.
By your logic, we'd use the same powders for a 30br as we do a 6br with the same bullet weight. Why we don't is again similar to hydraulics. Do better.

 

[ELR LVR]

No and No....The bbl is just like a hydraulic cylinder with a TINY PERCENTAGE of leak by. And NO, it's not like hitting a bullet on a string. If it was, we wouldn't build pressure.

Come on man! I've given you way more credit than this crap! Your replies are wayy out in lala land on this.
By your logic, we'd use the same powders for a 30br as we do a 6br with the same bullet weight. Why we don't is again similar to hydraulics. Do better.

Most bullets have a "Pressure ring" that is approx (.0001" - .0004") over bore diameter
at the base
---
what we can do is
Fire and recover a bullet, and measure how much ahead of the base actually expanded over initial bullet diameter.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Most bullets have a "Pressure ring" that is approx (.0001" - .0004") over bore diameter
at the base

And...

Youre gonna need to get into both hydraulics and hoop stress here. As well as friction. A bullet down the bore is nothing like one on a string. That's why a bbl is commonly called a pressure vessel. Do better or just stop it. You're still way out there.

 

[ELR LVR]

Come on man! I've given you way more credit than this crap! Your replies are wayy out in lala land on this.
By your logic, we'd use the same powders for a 30br as we do a 6br with the same bullet weight. Why we don't is again similar to hydraulics. Do better.

That has to do with expansion ratio of the bore
that is a different point than I am trying to make
I don't see the relevance of what powder to use here.
----
my point is only one, the bullet surface contacting the bore surface, and coppering up
the bullet surface doesn't undulate along with the micro undulations of bore surface
but rides along the surface
if we polish a bore too smooth, we get more surface contact between bullet and bore
there is a reason every barrel maker agrees - not to use a mirror like finish.
the mirror like finish and avoiding it - is what I was addressing

 

[ELR LVR]

Here's a post from others who understand and agree with what I am saying
One person mentioned he did not understand why polishing a barrel makes it copper or foul
WORSE
than a rougher bore
----
"Had a barrel maker tell me that if you polish the bore of a barrel to much .( make it nice and smooth ) that it will foul up worse then one with a rougher surface . Have a hard time to believe this statement"


Answer From FeMan here on the forum:
---
"At the speeds bullets are going in a barrel, I am not sure friction acts the way we normally think it does. Even in your tube analogy of fluid mechanics, smooth and a laminar flow is better most of the time. However, it you get things going fast enough the friction actually decreases with a rough wall and turbulent boundary layer. That's why golf balls aren't smooth.

Bullets against steel aren't fluid mechanics though. I have heard and subscribe to the theory that the first couples inches of the bore, where bullets speed is less can benefit from polishing but beyond that, over-polishing can add to copper fouling. I can't remember where I heard that theory but as an engineer, it made sense to me."
---
this coincides with exactly what I have researched other barrel makers stating and is the only point I was trying to relay
---
Another corroborating answer from Rardoin
---
"Your assumptions on surface drag in fluid dynamics are incorrect. Regardless, their application in jacket interaction with the bore surface would not apply. It has been long established that a highly polished bore will cause more 'smear' of copper than one with a more rough surface. "
---
Simply worded from Mark W here on A.S.
"The way I picture this is that surface with some texture will have less surface contact than a super smooth surface. It makes perfect sense to me that a polished smooth surface will have more friction and fouling."

---
Testimony from AckleymanII regarding a new "overpolished bore"
I was given a barrel once from a top barrel maker that was "Over polished". The barrel was chambered in 223.
IN 40 shots, the barrel's bore looked gold plated...solid copper.
No bore scope was used on the over polished barrel, just looked into the muzzle. Accuracy of course started to get very bad, and actually saw pressure increase from so much copper in the barrel.
---
Also simply worded from Ackman here:
"Even on a very smooth lapped new custom bore, the bullet rides on microscopic ridges. When it finally becomes super smooth, there's more bore to bullet surface"

 

[Steve Donlon]

I like my Teslong and a barrel that is not spotless. But I was sure glad I noticed how much carbon was building up before it got to bad. Using some of those double base powers can cause more carbon build up sooner and it's much harder to get out if you wait to long. A valuable tool for me. Just have to know how to use it and realize fouling is not a bad thing.

 

[NZ_Fclass]

Looking through borescopes can't scare me.
I own Savage barrels!

Confession is good for the soul.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Here's a post from others who understand and agree with what I am saying
One person mentioned he did not understand why polishing a barrel makes it copper or foul
WORSE
than a rougher bore
----
"Had a barrel maker tell me that if you polish the bore of a barrel to much .( make it nice and smooth ) that it will foul up worse then one with a rougher surface . Have a hard time to believe this statement"


Answer From FeMan here on the forum:
---
"At the speeds bullets are going in a barrel, I am not sure friction acts the way we normally think it does. Even in your tube analogy of fluid mechanics, smooth and a laminar flow is better most of the time. However, it you get things going fast enough the friction actually decreases with a rough wall and turbulent boundary layer. That's why golf balls aren't smooth.

Bullets against steel aren't fluid mechanics though. I have heard and subscribe to the theory that the first couples inches of the bore, where bullets speed is less can benefit from polishing but beyond that, over-polishing can add to copper fouling. I can't remember where I heard that theory but as an engineer, it made sense to me."
---
this coincides with exactly what I have researched other barrel makers stating and is the only point I was trying to relay
---
Another corroborating answer from Rardoin
---
"Your assumptions on surface drag in fluid dynamics are incorrect. Regardless, their application in jacket interaction with the bore surface would not apply. It has been long established that a highly polished bore will cause more 'smear' of copper than one with a more rough surface. "
---
Simply worded from Mark W here on A.S.
"The way I picture this is that surface with some texture will have less surface contact than a super smooth surface. It makes perfect sense to me that a polished smooth surface will have more friction and fouling."

---
Testimony from AckleymanII regarding a new "overpolished bore"
I was given a barrel once from a top barrel maker that was "Over polished". The barrel was chambered in 223.
IN 40 shots, the barrel's bore looked gold plated...solid copper.
No bore scope was used on the over polished barrel, just looked into the muzzle. Accuracy of course started to get very bad, and actually saw pressure increase from so much copper in the barrel.
---
Also simply worded from Ackman here:
"Even on a very smooth lapped new custom bore, the bullet rides on microscopic ridges. When it finally becomes super smooth, there's more bore to bullet surface"

What a mess of stuff to straighten out and apparently, explain. Im not doing it tonight but you're headed in a different direction for some reason. Is that intentional?