Tempil stick WTH?

[diego-ted]

I built an anneling machine. So I bought a 750* Tempil stick so I could set up the machine. When I went to use the stick it was hard as a rock! Kind of like limestone for marking steel but harder. I could not get the stuff to mark on the inside of a case? I was expecting something like a crayon? Is this the way this stuff is supposed to come? If so it is worthless for what I need? I will have to buy the liquid type?

Diego

 

[bow shot]

Same experience. I went stick because it was all I could get in my area without paying $15 to ship the stupid tiny bottle.

Anyway, the way the stick works is you rub it on the hot metal. If you keep at it, you'll get it down.

Practice on it on ONE piece of brass, over and over and over… After a while, you'll find that it takes "x" seconds in the flame to get your case to hit 750 degrees at a distance "x" from the shoulder.

When you hit temperature, the stick will wipe a wet stripe on the case. Keep at it, and you'll get it. But be prepared, it is a PITA till you get the hang of it.

If you have a welding supply shop around they may have it in the bottle.

 

[bow shot]

I should mention, that the method I posted is what the mfg.'s instructions say.

 

[drumcorpschamp]

Diego,

Yes, the sticks are worthless for case annealing. Get yourself the liquid and move on.

Another thing you'll find as bunk is painting the outside of the neck with the liquid. Turns black the instant the flame touches it. Put a vertical stripe inside the neck and increase your dwell time in the flame until it reacts.

Jerry

 

[jlow]

The stick is indeed worthless for this application.

What they are made for is for an application where the temperature is constant. Imagine you are in a work area and you want to find out the temperature of a surface, with the stick Templiq, you write across the surface and if the stick melts and writes, then the surface is hotter than the stick’s stated temp.

The problem with using it for annealing is first, you need three hands to hold the torch, spinning brass, and the stick. The second problem is by the time you notice the stick is melting, it has already exceeded that temperature. If you remove the brass from the flame to test it, it cools down so fast that you again will not get an accurate read.

My advice is DO NOT USE THE STICK.

 

[amlevin]

Frankly I prefer the stick to painting the liquid inside,outside, or anywhere.

I only need to use the stick to determine "flame time" for the torch setting in use and then i't on with the process using TIME rather than marking each case.

I find that I get more than satisfactory results just removing the case from the flame and quickly touching the crayon to the turning case. Smear = desired temp, No smear=not hot enough.

BTW, I can anneal cases more than fast enough using a single torch, a deep socket and a Cordless drill. No need to dump hundreds of dollars in a machine for a simple process like this.

To each their own though. Just because one's not doing it the way everyone else is doesn't mean they're doing it wrong.

 

[guidom]

best off buying the liquid.

 

[watercam]

I was under the impression that one painted inside the necks with 750 deg. Tempilaq and that was the temperature one was aiming for ON THE NECK. I thought that the temperature below the shoulder did not want to reach more than 475-500 degrees. This according to two major sources. Anyone care to educate me?

 

[bow shot]

amlevin, glad I'm not the only one, lol!

I also just wipe the stick on the case w/i 0.5 seconds of exiting the flame. Took a bit to get solid on the method for that, but it workds well for me...

If I can get our FLIR from work I may do some experimenting (if it will read high enough)...

 

[diego-ted]

I am no metaloligest, but from what I understand about brass is once removed from the flame it starts cooling immediately. So if you pull the case from the flame and can melt the 750* stick the case must have been way hotter when under flame? Right or wrong?

Ted

 

[CatShooter]

So if you pull the case from the flame and can melt the 750* stick the case must have been way hotter when under flame? Right or wrong?

Ted

RIGHT!!!

 

[LHSmith]

So if you pull the case from the flame and can melt the 750* stick the case must have been way hotter when under flame? Right or wrong?

Ted

RIGHT!!!

I agree......from Ken Lights website (paraphrasing): " The critical time and temp. at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 750-800' F in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach a higher temp than this, REGARDLESS OF TIME, it will be made irrevocably too soft........case life will be good, but any accuracy gains will be lost.

 

[bow shot]

In 0.5 seconds??? Ok I guess...

 

[jlow]

0.5 seconds is a long time in terms of temperature change...

 

[amlevin]

I am no metaloligest, but from what I understand about brass is once removed from the flame it starts cooling immediately. So if you pull the case from the flame and can melt the 750* stick the case must have been way hotter when under flame? Right or wrong?

Ted

The trick is to merely touch one side of the case while the other is still rotating through the flame. In reality, the case is still being heated. You just don't want to have the flame hit the crayon.

 

[jlow]

I am no metaloligest, but from what I understand about brass is once removed from the flame it starts cooling immediately. So if you pull the case from the flame and can melt the 750* stick the case must have been way hotter when under flame? Right or wrong?

Ted

The trick is to merely touch one side of the case while the other is still rotating through the flame. In reality, the case is still being heated. You just don't want to have the flame hit the crayon.

So now you just added another thing to keep track of other than the flame and the case in something that is already pretty complex. How is this better?

 

[mikecr]

IMO, it's a crappy standard to base anything on here.
For one, if your melting 750deg crayon inside the neck, so fast, you've gone way above that on the outside of the neck. What is the flamepoint temp of your torch?

What I love about lead dip is that I have all the time in the world and I'm heating both inner and outer at the same stable temp(which can never be above my setting).
I know that lead dip isn't for everyone,, just using this example method for contrast.

 

[bow shot]

mikecr, tell me about your lead dip method.

Out of all the methods I've studied, I liked that one the best...

 

[jlow]

IMO, it's a crappy standard to base anything on here.
For one, if your melting 750deg crayon inside the neck, so fast, you've gone way above that on the outside of the neck. What is the flamepoint temp of your torch?

What I love about lead dip is that I have all the time in the world and I'm heating both inner and outer at the same stable temp(which can never be above my setting).
I know that lead dip isn't for everyone,, just using this example method for contrast.

Mikecr – I agree with you completely about your comment that Tempilaq, even the liquid paint on stuff is a “crappy standard to base anything on”. The way I look at it, Tempilaq is an excellent material to determine if heat has traveled down your case to the head and how far i.e. after the fact. However, for actual determination of temperature at the neck and shoulders, it is next to useless for the exact reason you mentioned.

Your lead dip method may be a good method, but for the rest of us using a machine, I would recommended the “no red glow” method in the dark to find the right amount of heating time for any torch distance and flame strength and keep that constant using the BenchSource.

 

[mikecr]

mikecr, tell me about your lead dip method.
Out of all the methods I've studied, I liked that one the best...

I just melted a handful of large lead sinkers from Walmart into an inexpensive lead melting pot. I did spend a bit more(not much) for a thermocouple and indicator to set/watch the temp. This is cheap lead with a lot of impurities and melts ~500deg. I take it up to ~750deg.
This is on a table outdoors.
Before stress relieving I had dipped my cases into Mobil1(don't even try anything else) and let them drain leaving only a barely visible film on them. I pick a case by the rim while wearing a glove and slowly lower into lead and slowly raise it back out. Same rate all the way. Then I drop the case into a bucket of purple stuff degreaser to remove the oil. For new cases that I'm improving/reforming I dip the cases as far as mid-body over a period of ~30sec each.
For necks only, ~8-10sec seems a good rate.

Early in testing this process I used other/calibrated instruments borrowed from work to watch web/casehead temps and be sure they were not raised near 450deg. They never even reached 200deg, even at mid-body level dipping on short cases(br, WSSM, 223, etc). For necks only, no glove is needed.

There are other minor factors to account for, but this is basics of lead dipping.
It's received bad press from people who were never successful in actually doing it. That's all that is.
They failed because they didn't use Mobil1.

Can we 'anneal' as consistently with torches? I seriously doubt it.