Tell me about inline seater dies - do they really produce less runout?

[jlow]

I also want to follow up and ask folks here what they think of the inline seater dies. From what I can understand, they allow you to insert the case and the bullet completely in the bottom section before you put in the cap and stem on the top and this is what the arbor press push in to seat the bullet. The implication is that since all the components are already sitting in the bottom section, there is less chance for runout say compare to a screw in die.

I guess this is the part that I am not completely sold on. I think if all the components are sitting very tight in the base, this could theoretically happen. However, it would appear that they really cannot be that tight since there has to be some allowance for differences in resizing and for that matter, the top part where the bullet sits is probably the same diameter as the neck so by definition the bullet would have to be at least 1-2 thousands smaller than the area around it. Well, if I am usually getting slightly more than a thousands runout using the screw in die, I could be wrong but don’t see this being significantly better - am I wrong?

 

[markm87]

I use some of the Wilson Chamber seating dies. I sometimes have to pop a round out of the die with a popsicle stick. The dies don't add any runout to your round. They do fit fairly tight.

But I've taken a case that had 2 or 3 thou in runout and seated the bullet... The die won't produce a round straighter than the case neck you put into it.

I don't pull the stem completely out of the die body though. I leave it in so it aligns the bullet as I lower the die onto the round.. before I apply pressure to seat the bullet.

Most of the time I can get a loaded round to drop out of the die by breaking the air seal when I pull up on the stem cap.

 

[ReedG]

I have several sets of Wilson SS micrometer seating dies and they are very precise and well-made. I also have several sets of Redding, Forster and Hornady micrometer seating dies and, in my opinion, they seat bullets as true and straight as any die. They hold the case and bullet as precisely as the Wilson, seat bullets to repeatable depths, and are much easier for me to use. I now do all my loading with 7/8" dies in a custom turret press and they are concentric.

 

[GermanS1]

J, as the others said, the Wilson dies aren't necessarily better, they are more convenient for reloading at the range and useful in very limited space reloading, like in hotel rooms or the huts at Camp Perry.

Most of the runout in loaded ammo is induced by the brass itself or by poor resizing methods, the seater die is a very small influence, almost negligible. A few years ago I did a comparison of several dies, you might enjoy reading it here: http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/09/reloading-seating-die-runout.html

The main thing to take away from that article is a method of comparing your own dies, and the fact that all of them were pretty close. Don't take it as an absolute ranking for all dies by each maker, it isn't that.

 

[timeout]

All else being equal, I find that the inline Wilson dies and an arbor press allow for a better "feel", of the bullet seating process. For myself, it is much earier to detect a problem while seating. I also find the seating process quicker and more efficient once you get used to it, than the conventional threaded seater die in a pivot handle press. Not knocking Redding as they are good dies, but I sold my Redding's and replaced with all Wilson's.

 

[bozo699]

jlow,
I agree with Timeout, I like the feel of the Wilson or any inline die for that matter for that reason, also like German said there much more convenient then a std. 7/8's die in the field or in a motel room. You should never remove the stem as a general rule on the inline die's in the seating process, too much chance on dropping it and damaging it, you simply take the whole die w/top and place it over the case that you have placed a bullet it, the case is setting all the way into the die so it is completely supported before you start the bullet into the case which is nice, the way many of the threaded die this is also the case but not with all of them. You are right about different chambers, say you are turning your necks from .014 to .010 there is going to be that much slop in the fit, that is why many of us buy blanks and have them chambered with our chamber reamers, or make the whole die from scratch from a piece of round stock, or send our brass off to someone like Neil Jones or Bob Green and have them custom build a set of dies. I have a std. 7/8's dies in both neck and full length and seating and usually a body die for all the many rifles I own many Wilson or custom inline dies as well and if I have a Wilson for the chambering I rarely use the threaded die as someone already stated there also faster once you get used to them or at least they are for me. I hope this helps some.
Wayne.

 

[jlow]

Hi guys – more thanks again for the great answers/suggestions and more importantly for my education on these dies that I never used before. Wow! Custom dies…..holy…. 8) That is a great article German, as usual your style of testing really appeals to the scientist in me!

Looks like I cannot really go wrong going with the Wilson inline die if I end up getting the K&M arbor press. Who knows, I might even venture to do some of the range/hotel room reloading that I keep hearing about! As it is, as much as I like to shoot (I get out to the range at least once a week!), it always seems that it is not enough and being able to reload at the range would certainly open up opportunities for me.

I have just one more question and that relates to how you deal with measuring powder at the range. I currently use the GemPro 250 which I know could be battery powered and so I could weight stuff at the range, but assuming that I am not changing powder weight and just doing seating depth adjustments, do you guys ever pre-weight powder at home and bring it to the range somehow so that the powder weight step could be abbreviated?

One possibility would be to preload the primed rounds so that the bullets are seated higher than I need them and then just seat them down to size as per needed. Seems like the way to go but was not sure if you guys have tried this and how well it works?

 

[fdshuster]

jlow: I have and use both types, the Wilson chamber seaters with an arbor press & Forster ( my favorite) & Redding 7/8x14 threaded seater dies.

Think of the Wilson seater die as the chamber on your rifle, the barrel held vertically & the bullet dropped down the barrel, a long seater stem then pushed down the bore to seat the bullet in the case. Sounds like the most precise method of bullet seating.

Of course the Wilson is not used as I described. I hold the charged case under the seating ram, the base of the case in the sunken disc that is included with the die, place a bullet on the mouth of the case, squarely, & lower the ram to seat the bullet. As per the instructions by Wilson, I never remove the seater stem, but do keep it very lightly oiled. It does have more "feel" when seating the bullet(s) compared to the RCBS Rockchucker press.

I use a small bladed screwdriver to pry those cases out of the seater die, for the occassional ones that may stick.

For me, more time consuming than seating with the threaded seaters.

As an experiment, I have taken cases that have a history of loaded round runout, seated the bullets with the Wilson & the runout remains. Same is true with those cases in a threaded seater die. Garbage in, garbage out.

Just another way to seat bullets, with some advantages & dis-advantages.

 

[GermanS1]

J, here's a short piece on range reloading that might be helpful for when you take the plunge: http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/12/reloading-range-reloading.html

Your question about weighing charges at the range hit the nail on the head - that's the hardest thing for me because we don't have any enclosed area and it's pretty windy here. I've rigged up all sorts of little shelters for my mini-scale, mostly in the top of the tool box, but nothing has worked particularly well. What I normally do is go through the range of charge weights I'm interested in testing while I'm at home. I write down the settings on my Neal Jones powder measure for each charge weight and then throw them at the range. The Jones is perfectly repeatable as to the settings and throws fairly well (as good as any) considering the coarse powders I use. The imprecision inherent in throwing doesn't bother me too much during these sessions because usually all I'm doing is developing a chart of charge vs. velocity for a new powder lot and I only fire three or four shots per charge to build my graph. I do all my accuracy testing during 500 yard matches with pre-loaded ammo.

Bob Jensen, who I do a lot of testing with, likes to take pre-weighed charges to the range in glass vials. He got them years (maybe decades) ago from a medical supply place. They're like small test tubes. I prefer that to using the case with a lightly seated bullet because if a load is hitting the high end and I'm going to stop, I don't have to pull down the remaining ammo.

One of these days I'm going to take a wind-proof tent to the range and load in there! ;D

 

[bozo699]

jlow: I have and use both types, the Wilson chamber seaters with an arbor press & Forster ( my favorite) & Redding 7/8x14 threaded seater dies.

Think of the Wilson seater die as the chamber on your rifle, the barrel held vertically & the bullet dropped down the barrel, a long seater stem then pushed down the bore to seat the bullet in the case. Sounds like the most precise method of bullet seating.

Of course the Wilson is not used as I described. I hold the charged case under the seating ram, the base of the case in the sunken disc that is included with the die, place a bullet on the mouth of the case, squarely, & lower the ram to seat the bullet. As per the instructions by Wilson, I never remove the seater stem, but do keep it very lightly oiled. It does have more "feel" when seating the bullet(s) compared to the RCBS Rockchucker press.

I use a small bladed screwdriver to pry those cases out of the seater die, for the occassional ones that may stick.

For me, more time consuming than seating with the threaded seaters.

As an experiment, I have taken cases that have a history of loaded round runout, seated the bullets with the Wilson & the runout remains. Same is true with those cases in a threaded seater die. Garbage in, garbage out.

Just another way to seat bullets, with some advantages & dis-advantages.

100% spot on Frank!
Wayne.

Hi guys – more thanks again for the great answers/suggestions and more importantly for my education on these dies that I never used before. Wow! Custom dies…..holy…. 8) That is a great article German, as usual your style of testing really appeals to the scientist in me!

Looks like I cannot really go wrong going with the Wilson inline die if I end up getting the K&M arbor press. Who knows, I might even venture to do some of the range/hotel room reloading that I keep hearing about! As it is, as much as I like to shoot (I get out to the range at least once a week!), it always seems that it is not enough and being able to reload at the range would certainly open up opportunities for me.

I have just one more question and that relates to how you deal with measuring powder at the range. I currently use the GemPro 250 which I know could be battery powered and so I could weight stuff at the range, but assuming that I am not changing powder weight and just doing seating depth adjustments, do you guys ever pre-weight powder at home and bring it to the range somehow so that the powder weight step could be abbreviated?

One possibility would be to preload the primed rounds so that the bullets are seated higher than I need them and then just seat them down to size as per needed. Seems like the way to go but was not sure if you guys have tried this and how well it works?

jlow,
I have seen guys take pre loaded charges to the range, I have not but I do seat long and finish seating at the range for sure
Wayne.

 

[jlow]

Fdshuster – thanks for the blow-by-blow description of how the dies are used. I currently also use a Forster Ultra die and it works for me, especially when I remember to tighten that locking nut on the top! : I agree that generally speaking, trying to fix runout caused by a bad case is a lost cause although it sounds like German was at least partially successful in bending the rules with the Redding, I suspect that the Redding/German combination was perhaps just enough to scare the round back into place – sorry I can’t completely help myself!

German – based on your description, sounds like I am on the right track here. It is also pretty windy here too and I think the digital scale in the open is a bit of a lost cause. Speaking of containers, Wayne knows that my background before my retirement was in the lab and we go through a lot of this type of disposable plastic ware

http://www.amazon.com/PLASTIC-TEST-TUBES-CAPS-12/dp/B000F8XF6S

http://www.amazon.com/Corning-Premium-Graduated-Centrifuge-Plug-seal/dp/B0015SMB7Q

The stuff (at least the ones I used to use) comes clean and actually sterile and one can buy them in bulk like the one made by Corning. For reloading, assuming that you use the same powder, you could probably reuse them.

Wayne – thanks again for confirming my idea of seating long rounds.

 

[Shynloco]

jlow,
After reading all the posts, I have to say you were given alot of good information and all very reliable. But I personally liked what Timeout had to say about "the feel" when using the Wilson In-Line Seater Die and the Arbor Press. I say that because since "Neck Tension" is so critical to accuracy, when I seat bullets, I can tell when one casing is "harder" or "stiffer" than the rest, telling me that particualr casing is either history or has lost it's elasticity and will likely not release the bullet as efficientlly as the rest of the the batch. Just my thoughts.

 

[bozo699]

jlow,
After reading all the posts, I have to say you were given alot of good information and all very reliable. But I personally liked what Timeout had to say about "the feel" when using the Wilson In-Line Seater Die and the Arbor Press. I say that because since "Neck Tension" is so critical to accuracy, when I seat bullets, I can tell when one casing is "harder" or "stiffer" than the rest, telling me that particualr casing is either history or has lost it's elasticity and will likely not release the bullet as efficientlly as the rest of the the batch. Just my thoughts.

I agree with you on the best being Timeouts "the feel" being the closest to my thoughts as well along with fdshusters "garbage in garbage out"referring to brass with a lot of runout.
Wayne.

 

[jlow]

For sure “the feel” is what this got this reloader thinking in the first place. I use a single stage I remember clearly thinking that this variability in seating force can’t be good? Little did I know what this was leading to – LOL! :

 

[bozo699]

For sure “the feel” is what this got this reloader thinking in the first place. I use a single stage I remember clearly thinking that this variability in seating force can’t be good? Little did I know what this was leading to – LOL! :

jlow,
This comment really belongs on your other thread in arbor presses but I feel with this statement of "feel" I would like to add before I had a slew of Wilson dies I used a RCBS partner press with about a 4" handle I built for it so I had a better feel with my threaded seating dies.
Wayne.

 

[Bulseyetom]

I have used wilson seaters at the range and at home and always thought they were the best thing going until I bought a new Vickerman type die for a wildcat that a custom die was going to take too long to get as I didn't have a reamer. While not really range friendly, the Vickerman is so slick that I am about to buy a caliber kit so I can seat all of my different 6mm cases as well. I opted for the micrometer top so I can easily get back to the same oal. My old eyes, big and clumsy fingers and the Wilson don't always get along but the Vickerman is slicker than you know what on the doorknob! I am not measuring runout as I am a firm believer that the sizing die creates the most runout and I had Jim from JLC build me a bushing die for my wildcat. Tom

 

[jlow]

Thanks Wayne, at least for me, I could always feel the difference, now getting rid of the difference has always been my problem but I am getting there....

Bulsyetom – So can you tell us more as to why you like the Vickerman type die so much?

 

[BoydAllen]

FYI,
I have compared a short sleeve seater with an arbor press die, using the same sized brass, for my 6PPC. The short sliding sleeve seater gave twice the runout as the arbor press seater, with brass that was all about the same for runout. The seater can't make it any better than the FL die lets you, but it can make it worse. I DID the test.

 

[jlow]

Thanks BoydAllen, I guess since there is less support with the short sliding sleeve seater, that would make sense that there is greater chance for rounout - no free lunches.

 

[Leaddog]

I have the Wilson and the Redding Mic Top Competition Seater. I prefer the Redding for ease of use and speed. Both seem equally accurate with a better seating 'feel' with the Wilson.

The micrometer on my Redding is not repeatable. I find that changing back and forth between different bullets I have to get the calipers and comparators to recheck and adjust. The micrometer may return to a previous setting, but usually not exactly.