T3 Varmint VS 527 Varmint

[15Tango]

My wife wants to start shooting some informal F-Class with me and I've also been wanting a bolt .223 so I'm going to try and kill two birds with one stone here.

I want to be able to shoot a 75 grain A-max and VLD, they both stabilize fine out of my 9 twist AR but I have read a lot about people having a hard time getting the CZ 527 Varmint with its 9" twist to be accurate with anything but light bullets. The other rifle I was thinking about was the Tikka T3 Varmint with an 8" twist which I'm sure will stabilize those 75s just fine.

At this point I'm leaning towards the T3 for being more accurate overall, any experience with either and which do you think will be more accurate?

 

[shootsanything]

Tango,
I can only comment that my 9 twist 527 shoots really well with 55gr up to 70gr pills. I have never tried anything bigger. My notes say the best load I had was 26gr Varget behind a Berger 70grVLD with Fed205M primers - .25" group at 100 yards. Just over 3100fps. I ran out of Varget so I need to get some before I try Wolf primers.

I love this CZ and with 55gr Nosler Balistic tips it has accounted for lots of P-dogs, many well past the 500 yard mark.

 

[skeetlee]

sounds like i need to get one of those cz rifles for myself. i had to pay about 2 grand to get a rifle that would shoot .25 groups. i had a tikka t3 and it was a nice rifle. .5 to .8 inch groups were pretty common. the stock left a little to be desired but the action was very smooth and the trigger was decent. lee

 

[shootsanything]

Lee,
It is the second best factory gun I have, and cost less than half of my Cooper 22PPC that will easily shoot inside of it. The only problem is cleaning - not a hand lapped barrell and therefore getting rid of the copper takes a lot longer. The trick with this gun like all other is feeding it what it likes. I cannot tell you how much time I wasted (not to mention powder and primers) trying to make 36gr Varmint Grenades work - best group was just over 1".

The problem with buying a factory gun based on someone elses experiance is you sometimes get what you pay for. We have all had or seen factory CZ/Rem/Savage etc. that shoot like a house on fire and clean up everywhere they go - but they are the exception not the rule. I may have gotten lucky but this is my second CZ and based on the workmanship I have seen I cannot believe they sell much junk. I can say the same of Tikka and your comments just about prove this. You spend $2k or more on a custom gun and it does not shoot the builder generally will make it right. You spend 500 on a Rem and it only shoots 1" at 100 yards and Rem will say - "that is better than factory specs so be happy".

I say either gun should give pretty good results for F-class, with the limitation that the CZ may not handle the larger bullets. Largest I have tried is 70gr VLD.

 

[15Tango]

Shoots,

You're saying that your Cooper is harder to clean I assume? I've read that the CZs are lapped twice, once after line boring and then after hammer forging.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with the Tikka to get that 8" twist to make sure I can shoot 75s well and it should leave me room to be able to shoot 80s if I want - should.

Thanks for the report,

Wayne

 

[shootsanything]

Wayne,
No the CZ is harder to clean - the Cooper seldom gets any fouling at all. The CZ is not bad - but compared to my guns with premium barrels on them the CZ is a pain. Compared to my son's Savage it is a dream. Everything is relative.

Frankly I would rather be shooting than cleaning so most of the factory guns end up in the back of the safe.

Good luck with the Tilkka, I think it will be a good selection. The plan was to do the same (son, instead of wife) with the CZ this summer - but "Life is what happens while making plans to do other things". Maybe next year we will get out to do some F-class. Now back to loading for my M1A.

 

[ChuckMiller]

I have the T3 Varmint in a 1-8tw and it shoots the 75-80's just fine. Couple of things I'm not crazy about. First it's a full length 30-06 sized action shooting a 223 length case. Lots of plastic, ie complete bottom metal setup including mag box are part of the stock, ie no aftermarket stock without replacing everything. Trigger will only adjust so far as sear and safety are connected, lighten too much and it will slamfire. No aftermarket stuff, ie triggers, stocks, etc. Did I say a lot of plastic?

 

[Laurie]

Have you considered the Savage 12 LRPV or 12 BVSS as alternatives to the CZ and Tikka? With a 1-7" twist barrel option on the LRPV you have a ready-made F/TR number ready for 80s or heavier.

Laurie,
York, England

 

[Tozguy]

You have probably made the decision by now and am curious about how it went for you. After having handled owned or shot the three brands mentionned, i would buy a T3 to get my wife started. Mostly because the action is the smoothest and it does not give up any accuracy to the 527 or Savage. She won't scrap her knuckles on the scope with a T3 nor have to wrestle the bolt open like on a Savage. Actually, I am so convinced that I am going to order a T3 for her right away!
BTW the set trigger on the 527 feels better than the accutrigger but the T3 trigger comes a close second.

 

[Laurie]

...... nor have to wrestle the bolt open like on a Savage [TozGuy]

Not necessarily. I have three single-shot Savages with a 4th on order, the last named with a timed and tricked-up action. However, both of my out of the box factory rifles are smooth operators, a .204 Ruger cal 12 LRPV RBLP model having the sweetest factory action I've encountered in four decades of shooting. They are variable though out of the box, hence the range of comments you see about them.

I've nearly done with the LRPV in .204 form and our sole Savage accuracy rifle specialist, Stuart Anselm of Osprey Rifles is hoping to get me a replacement factory LRPV or F/TR .223 Rem 1-7" twist factory barrel. The idea is to turn it into a budget F/TR rifle by fitting it with a Harris S-Type bi-pod and a cheap but good Japanese manufactured (probably by Hakko) 24X44 target scope sold under the brand name of one of our leading shooting importers to see how well it would perform in club level competition out to 800yd. Since the club in question has over 100 F/TR competitors including around two-thirds of the UK's top 10 GB F-Class Association national league F/TR shooters - and owns one of the most demanding ranges in Europe weather conditions wise - this would be no lightweight challenge.

Laurie,
York, England

 

[Tozguy]

Hi Laurie,
About the Savage, I wonder if the 204 and 223 calibers are better than the 6BR size for bolt openning. My Model 12 F class in 6BR needed a heavy hand for bolt openning under the best of conditions. It became a distraction. There seemed to be more than one Savage 12 owner looking to have the bolt timing trick done and, results were not always satisfactory. Granted my experience is limited but with my Savage it seemed to be due to the design and not because of an execution slip up. Savage does have a lot to offer for the price but in the context of starting a spouse off on the right foot I stand by my comments. Mike

 

[Laurie]

Mike,

I think it is variability in the execution. My trio range from superb to poor with a 12 F-Class rifle in the middle. We have a lot of out of the box 6.5-284 12 F-Class rifles used over here for 600 and 1,000yd Factory Sporter class BR competition, and some owners get their five shots off at a really good lick with no visible disturbance on the bags.

Some of these rifles really do group too at long range and were nearly unbeatable for a couple of seasons. This has since ended as we have a young lady called Toni Young who is winning FS class regularly at both ranges with a .308W Remington 700 - yes, really!

Sadly, my 6.5-284 was obviously at the poor end of the factory barrel quality spectrum and never performed that well, or produced the MVs other people said they got. As of a few weeks ago, it has a Bartlein Heavy Palma contour barrel chambered for 6.5X55mm fitted and now it really DOES shoot!

I don't have much luck with 6.5-284 and often wonder if it's overrated. I'm giving it one last chance with a decent Krieger barrel equipped .260 Rem rifle being rechambered to it. if that doesn't work, there will be some Lapua 6.5-284 brass and Forster dies going cheap on the UK secondhand market!

Laurie

 

[Tozguy]

Laurie,
I see what you mean, luck of the draw when it comes to factory stock rifles maybe. Wouldn't it be nice if it was just a lube choice problem
Do you see any other brands of factory rifles than Savage and Remington on the line? Just curious as to whether CZ and Tikka/Sako show up at all. Mike

 

[Laurie]

Mike,

it used to be mostly Remy's with a few others thrown in, then Savage scooped the pool for two or three years and they are numerically still the most popular by far. We see the occasional Tikka Varmint and those in 6.5X55mm do particularly well. Sako rifles don't appear very often in longer-range matches, but we have a couple of guys who shoot 6PPC-USA 75 Varmint examples in 100yd FS BR - very rare beasties here as they were only made for a short time and few British fox shooters knew about the PPC at that time. (Things change!) Sako is also a very pricey rifle in the UK, and Tikka which started out cheap in T3 form is no longer either.

There are more than a few Accuracy International AE and AWP models around - very popular and they shoot very well for military spec rifles. They were all .308 WIn until recently, but AI now offers a 6.5X47L barrel option and there's at least one such used in 600yd BR.

CZs - we've had them here as sporting rifles in first Brno then CZ monikers for a lot longer than you guys (the commie contamination issue never applied here). I think there are some 452s used in rimfire BR, but I've never seen a centrefire CZ used in any form of competition. I've had a few 527s over the years and borrowed more from the importer to review in shooting mags, but while they're lovely little sporters in HBar form, always felt the mini-Mauser action isn't rigid enough to shoot really well. We did have an outfit that was buying Cz527 carbines in 7.62X39mm just for the actions to rebuild them as PPC varmint rifles restocked in the H-S Precision kevlar / fglass stock. I don't think they sold many - word had it that 0.5-MOA was the likely capability and people getting a custom PPC expected better, a lot better. I had one of these little rifles (in Cz527 7.62X39mm guise that is) and it was fun for a while, but rather like .223 Rem with 52gn bullets - OK to 500yd on big targets as long as the wind is constant!

I've read several US articles too on 527s in custom / varmint form rebarrelled to 6.8mm Rem SPC and never been impressed by the reported groups.

Laurie

 

[Tozguy]

Tango,
Once your wife gets initiated she might ask for one of these:

http://mg-42.net/200str.htm

From what the videos from Norway look like, they are one smooth operating shooting stick!