Switching from standard to bushing dies - questions

[Roach]

So I had this happen today on 3x fired Hornady brass and it's unsettling. Most of my rifle reloading has been for .308 where I used standard dies RCBS dies. I never turned necks, used an expander ball, and FL sized only bumping the shoulder back .002. I had 500 pieces of LC LR brass that was primed and never fired. All that brass has 5x on it and I only have a few loose primer pockets. It shot a legit .5 MOA consistently although everyone shoots that on the internet these days.


The Old Ghost Thomas Lovell Beddoes

I'm using basically the same standard FL sizing die on the 6.5 creedmoor along with a Redding competition seating die because the micrometer makes this simple. I'm still only bumping shoulders back .002 but apparently I'm overworking the brass so I was thinking about switching to FL bushing dies. Lately it seems like the expander ball requires more force to be pulled out of the case. I can only assume that the neck is getting sized down too much.

So with bushing dies I'm figuring the best practice is to decap the brass separate and use a bushing .002 smaller than a loaded round. The question is if the bushing sizes the neck with the right tension why are some people using a mandrel to expand the neck?

::

 

[243winxb]

The question is if the bushing sizes the neck with the right tension why are some people using a mandrel to expand the neck?

Unturned neck that are sized with a bushing have the uneven neck wall thickness pushed to the inside. The mandrel pushes it back to the outside.

 

[Roach]

Unturned neck that are sized with a bushing have the uneven neck wall thickness pushed to the inside. The mandrel pushes it back to the outside.

Simple enough, thanks.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

You think you may have set up to bump .002 on once fired brass then after it was formed you bumped it way way back? If you set up for 2 on the first firing you may be bumping 8-10 after it forms. Thats what i see but could be wrong. You gotta check those bumps every firing

 

[Roach]

You think you may have set up to bump .002 on once fired brass then after it was formed you bumped it way way back? If you set up for 2 on the first firing you may be bumping 8-10 after it forms. Thats what i see but could be wrong. You gotta check those bumps every firing

i check every firing. I know sometimes the brass won't fully form to the chamber after the first firing but my measurements (shoulder) always come back 1.556 using the Hornady kit, forget what it's called comparator? They didn't have the RCBS precision mic when I got the gun, but that's what I use in other calibers. First, second, third firing all the same.

I just took a bunch of measurements on the neck, base, and body of the brass to see how much the die was sizing down. I first removed the expander ball and the body that measured .464 only went down to .465.

The neck sizing however went from fired- .295 / resized (no xpander ball) to .280 and the expander ball opened it up to .286

 

[Dusty Stevens]

i check every firing. I know sometimes the brass won't fully form to the chamber after the first firing but my measurements (shoulder) always come back 1.556 using the Hornady kit, forget what it's called comparator? They didn't have the RCBS precision mic when I got the gun, but that's what I use in other calibers. First, second, third firing all the same.

I just took a bunch of measurements on the neck, base, and body of the brass to see how much the die was sizing down. I first removed the expander ball and the body that measured .464 only went down to .465.

The neck sizing however went from fired- .295 / resized (no xpander ball) to .280 and the expander ball opened it up to .286

Well my theory is shot then. Let us know when you find out!

 

[08glide]

Have you checked to see how much your die is sizing the body? I would be measuring a fired case before and after sizing in the area where the separation happened. Hope you get it figured out.

 

[Roach]

Have you checked to see how much your die is sizing the body? I would be measuring a fired case before and after sizing in the area where the separation happened. Hope you get it figured out.

About .001 from .465 to .464.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

You may just have gotten a bad batch of brass. It sucks.

 

[Roach]

You may just have gotten a bad batch of brass. It sucks.

At least it's Hornady and not Lapua. I have no problem tossing all couple hundred fired pieces I have. I have 300 more, new, in the box. I just want to minimize it happening again.

 

[Clancy]

Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor cases with case head separations are about as common as photoshopped ladies on the Internet. I literally see someone post about it very regularly. The solution is to buy better brass...

It might seem like it costs more, but when you can fire it 20 or 30 times it starts to make sense....

I’m sure you knew that, just a friendly reminder.

 

[7887mm08]

i check every firing. I know sometimes the brass won't fully form to the chamber after the first firing but my measurements (shoulder) always come back 1.556 using the Hornady kit, forget what it's called comparator? They didn't have the RCBS precision mic when I got the gun, but that's what I use in other calibers. First, second, third firing all the same.

I just took a bunch of measurements on the neck, base, and body of the brass to see how much the die was sizing down. I first removed the expander ball and the body that measured .464 only went down to .465.

The neck sizing however went from fired- .295 / resized (no xpander ball) to .280 and the expander ball opened it up to .286

Am I missing something? ( .464 only went down to .465) That's going up not down.

 

[JFrank]

So I had this happen today on 3x fired Hornady brass and it's unsettling. Most of my rifle reloading has been for .308 where I used standard dies RCBS dies. I never turned necks, used an expander ball, and FL sized only bumping the shoulder back .002. I had 500 pieces of LC LR brass that was primed and never fired. All that brass has 5x on it and I only have a few loose primer pockets. It shot a legit .5 MOA consistently although everyone shoots that on the internet these days.


The Old Ghost Thomas Lovell Beddoes

I'm using basically the same standard FL sizing die on the 6.5 creedmoor along with a Redding competition seating die because the micrometer makes this simple. I'm still only bumping shoulders back .002 but apparently I'm overworking the brass so I was thinking about switching to FL bushing dies. Lately it seems like the expander ball requires more force to be pulled out of the case. I can only assume that the neck is getting sized down too much.

So with bushing dies I'm figuring the best practice is to decap the brass separate and use a bushing .002 smaller than a loaded round. The question is if the bushing sizes the neck with the right tension why are some people using a mandrel to expand the neck?

::

That sounds awfully familiar to me.
1-My F/L sizer will over work brass as well getting case separation in around 10 loads- my causes was too much cam over.
2-My neck sizer will destroy brass if the ball is set to shallow
3- without the ball the die sizes neck diameter .010 under

Re - tracing all of my die set up steps really helped me !

Semi custom body die helped me"

Neck bushing vs neck sizer is my only path forward .
Regards
J

 

[243winxb]

The neck sizing however went from fired- .295 / resized (no xpander ball) to .280 and the expander ball opened it up to .286

Classic over working of the neck.

The Redding type S fl sizing die can be used with or without the expander. http://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs

It has come to our attention through customer calls and our own use of the bushing style sizing dies that in certain instances, a given neck sizing bushing will produce a case neck diameter that can be several thousandths of an inch smaller than the actual diameter of the bushing. This idiosyncrasy occurs when the neck diameter of the fired case is a great deal larger than the diameter of the neck sizing bushing, such as occurs when factory chambers are on the large side of the tolerance range and the brass is on the thin side. NOTE> Typically, we have not noticed any problems until the case neck is reduced more than 0.008-0.010".

Separation- Seem to be a Hornady 6.5 brass problem from a google search?? http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/hornady-brass.3934813/ and http://www.65creedmoor.com/index.php?topic=9426.0

Or its operator error when sizing?

http://www.65creedmoor.com/index.php?topic=3500.0

 

[Roach]

Classic over working of the neck.

The Redding

Or its operator error when sizing?

The million dollar question right there...

http://www.65creedmoor.com/index.php?topic=3500.0

Am I missing something? ( .464 only went down to .465) That's going up not down.

Fired, unsized brass measures .465. Sizing it brings it down to .464 a reduction of .001.

Now I'm reading that people are getting smaller neck OD than the bushing size. Redding says this happens when you're attempting to size over .008 going from a fired .295 to .286/.287 tells me I'll probably experience the same problem.

 

[6milphil]

I had this exact same problem with hornady 6.5 creedmoor brass. I switched to starline brass and the problem disappeared.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Unturned neck that are sized with a bushing have the uneven neck wall thickness pushed to the inside. The mandrel pushes it back to the outside.

Do you have a link to the mandrel you're talking about? Does it replace the expander in a Redding bushing die, or is it it's own separate thing?

 

[Roach]

Do you have a link to the mandrel you're talking about? Does it replace the expander in a Redding bushing die, or is it it's own separate thing?

While you're waiting for your answer - by everything I've seen - it's a seperate step. Guys are NOT using the expander ball and instead using the mandrel expander. Sinclair has the dies and mandrels.

https://www.sinclairintl.com/reload...ls/generation-ii-expander-dies-prod38807.aspx

 

[Dusty Stevens]

http://www.portersprecisionproducts.com/porter/

Call kenny porter. Its the only expander die to have. Way better than trying to get a neck turning mandrel in the right size. For under $5 on ebay i can have any size i want and can adjust tension in very few lbs at a time

 

[243winxb]

I use this.