Stupid bushing die question

[ncduckman]

First of all, this site rocks! I spent part of the day tuning up my 5-0-5 scale per what I read here and now can get single kernel action!

Anyhow, I am switching over to bushing dies and have been reading way too much that my head is spinning. I got to reading about expander balls and then started thinking ...

If bushing dies use an expander ball, then what is the point of the bushing (and picking the right size per your loaded ammo)?

It would seem to me that the expander ball would size the ID of the neck to the size of the ball, regardless of bushing size.

Can someone help me out here?

Confused.

Thanks,
Robert

 

[Bill Norris]

Yes Sir most of us remove the expander when using bushing dies.

 

[ncduckman]

Well, then that doesn't make any sense at all. So I bought three expensive bushing dies, and still need to by expensive bushings; but it doesn't matter what size bushing I choose as the size is determined by the expander?

That makes zero sense to me.

 

[Mark W]

Well, then that doesn't make any sense at all. So I bought three expensive bushing dies, and still need to by expensive bushings; but it doesn't matter what size bushing I choose as the size is determined by the expander?

That makes zero sense to me.

The point (for me anyway) is to come to the brass sized to the preferred dimension without working it excessively. Like Bill said, you can remove the expander altogether which is exactly what I do. I then use an expander mandrel as my final step in sizing because once again I can closely control the amount that I’m moving the brass. You can buy even more expensive custom honed dies to perform the same functions if you wish.

 

[1shot]

As others have said, lose the expander ball and all will be right in the world.

Lloyd

 

[hogpatrol]

There are numerous threads on pros and cons of expander balls. The search function is your friend.

Search results for query: expander ball

 

[JMayo]

In my opinion many were taught "expander" I wasn't.

A lot of fishermen talk here.

I don't own an expander .... If a case gets dented I use a bullet to un dent it.

Bushing only.

I'm a Benchrest only shooter.

 

[AlNyhus]

Well, then that doesn't make any sense at all. So I bought three expensive bushing dies, and still need to by expensive bushings; but it doesn't matter what size bushing I choose as the size is determined by the expander?

That makes zero sense to me.

You don't use an expander with a bushing die.

Depending on the brand, a bushing die will have a 'nut' that goes where the expander normally is, to tighten and hold the decapping pin.....the 'nut' will be considerably smaller than the inside of the case neck so it doesn't 'expand' the neck in any way. Redding, for example, furnishes a normal expander, as well as the undersized 'nut', with their bushing dies.

Hope this helps. -Al

 

[ncduckman]

Thanks for the replies. I have read many of these threads. I guess I didn't find a definitive answer/clarification to my question.

So, bear with me here, just trying to clear my swimming head. This is how I understand it now:

The expander ball in my 260 Remington full length Type S die is 0.263",; and the neck thickness of my Norma brass is 0.0125" (based on measuring a loaded round). So, if I purchase the 0.275" bushing, then the ID of my neck should be 0.263" (assume uniform neck thickness). If that is the case, then the expander ball will provide zero/minimal sizing of the neck (theoretically). AND, if there is 0.001" of spring back, then the ball would not touch the neck at all.

So the purpose of the expander is to push the inconsistencies to the outside of the neck, correct?

So, say you want MORE than 0.001" neck tension (for a hunting round/etc), then Redding should really get into the business of selling expander balls in varying diameters, correct?

Perhaps Redding should clarify that their dies do not provide more than 0.001" neck tension when using the expander.

Lastly, are there those out there that do not use a mandrel at all with the expander removed and just let the bushing do ALL of the neck sizing?

Thank you for your patience!

(sorry if it appears I was ignoring the last couple replies. they came in as I was typing this)

 

[457ciSBC]

So, say you want MORE than 0.001" neck tension (for a hunting round/etc), then Redding should really get into the business of selling expander balls in varying diameters, correct?

Perhaps Redding should clarify that their dies do not provide more than 0.001" neck tension when using the expander.

Lastly, are there those out there that do not use a mandrel at all with the expander removed and just let the bushing do ALL of the neck sizing?

Thank you for your patience!

No, you control the amount of tension you want by selecting the applicable bushing size. If you want more tension, select a smaller bushing size.

Yes, the bushing does the sizing.

 

[ncduckman]

No, you control the amount of tension you want by selecting the applicable bushing size. If you want more tension, select a smaller bushing size.

Yes, the bushing does the sizing.

Cool. I think I am getting it now. I see that Forster neck bump die does not come with a ball at all.

This is starting to make sense to me.

Thanks again for your patience!

Robert

 

[457ciSBC]

Cool. I think I am getting it now. I see that Forster neck bump die does not come with a ball at all.

This is starting to make sense to me.

Thanks again for your patience!

Robert

You are welcome, none of us were born walking! We all had to learn from scratch at some point.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Read the Redding Bushing Die FAQ below, if you have a off the shelf factory rifle with a SAAMI chamber a bushing die may not be the best choice. Bushing dies work best with custom tight neck chambers and neck turned brass. I have better results with non-bushing Forster full length dies that produce "LESS" neck runout. When sizing with a bushing die the more the neck diameter has to be reduced the greater the chance the floating bushing will induce neck runout. The bushing floats, can move from side to side and even tilt when sizing the neck.

Below Redding puts an expander in their bushing dies for a reason!

Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)​

https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs

Bushing Selection​

The above methods of determining bushing size require that the cases being sized have a fairly uniform neck wall thickness or have been neck turned. If the neck wall thickness varies more than 0.002", it may be necessary to use a bushing a couple of thousandths smaller than your calculations indicate, and then use a size button in the die to determine the final inside neck diameter.

We have conducted many tests over the years on the various factors contributing to concentricity problems with bottleneck cases. We have repeatedly found a definite correlation between the uniformity of the brass (or lack of it) and the resulting concentricity of the neck to the body of the case.

An interesting experiment also revealed that neck turning of brass that was intentionally sorted as non-uniform, showed little or no concentricity improvement when used in standard S.A.A.M.I. spec chambers. Conversely brass that was sorted and selected for uniformity remained uniform and concentric with or without a neck turning operation.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Redding neck thickness gauge pictured below will tell you the quality of your cases with one twist of the wrist.

Below the Forster full length dies produced less neck runout than a Redding bushing die. I did not have the necks honed on any of my Forster dies.

 

[ncduckman]

Read the Redding Bushing Die FAQ below, if you have a off the shelf factory rifle with a SAAMI chamber a bushing die may not be the best choice. Bushing dies work best with custom tight neck chambers and neck turned brass. I have better results with non-bushing Forster full length dies that produce "LESS" neck runout. When sizing with a bushing die the more the neck diameter has to be reduced the greater the chance the floating bushing will induce neck runout. The bushing floats, can move from side to side and even tilt when sizing the neck.

Below Redding puts an expander in their bushing dies for a reason!

Well crap then. I guess I should have done WAY more homework when choosing dies, as I have recently purchased used bushing dies for three calibers (Redding FLs in 260 and 308 and a Forster bump die in 243). To add insult to injury, none of the bushings I have will work with my brass. So I need to purchase additional bushings as well. Ugh.

I will probably see how this goes and keep my eye out for some Forster FL dies.

Thanks again!

 

[Uncle Ed]

Well crap then. I guess I should have done WAY more homework when choosing dies, as I have recently purchased used bushing dies for three calibers (Redding FLs in 260 and 308 and a Forster bump die in 243). To add insult to injury, none of the bushings I have will work with my brass. So I need to purchase additional bushings as well. Ugh.

I will probably see how this goes and keep my eye out for some Forster FL dies.

Thanks again!

There is a reason why so many reloaders use the Lee collet die, they produce less neck runout than a bushing die. I prefer using the Forster dies and only sizing the case once and have the same or less neck runout.

Again bushing dies work best in custom tight neck chambers with neck turned brass. And a bushing die in a standard SAAMI chamber has to reduce the neck more and increase the chance of inducing neck runout. And the quality of the case and neck thickness uniformity plays a big part. And if you do neck turn for a SAAMI chamber the neck will expand more and need reduced in diameter even more.

 

[ncduckman]

There is a reason why so many reloaders use the Lee collet die, they produce less neck runout than a bushing die. I prefer using the Forster dies and only sizing the case once and have the same or less neck runout.

Well, it is a good thing I haven't sold off my Lee die sets yet!

 

[AlNyhus]

The expander ball in my 260 Remington full length Type S die is 0.263"....

What does the diameter of the additional supplied decapping pin 'nut' measure?

Lastly, are there those out there that do not use a mandrel at all with the expander removed and just let the bushing do ALL of the neck sizing?

The whole point of a bushing die is to not use the expander to size the neck.

 

[creedfan]

just buy the l e wilson die or redding competition and life will be good

 

[AlNyhus]

ncduckman:

Here's what I'm talking about re: the Type S dies expander and reduced diameter decapping pin nut:

This is the standard expander that comes with the Redding Type S f.l. bushing dies...it's the standard expander, just like a normal Redding die would use. In this case, it's for a 6BR. Note the diameter.

Here's the reduced diameter decapping pin 'nut' that also comes with the Redding Type S f.l. dies. Again, note the diameter.

This decapping pin 'nut' is on average .018-.020 smaller than the standard expander. This is so it doesn't touch the inside of the neck.

Hope this helps. -Al

 

[Uncle Ed]

What does the diameter of the additional supplied decapping pin 'nut' measure?


The whole point of a bushing die is to not use the expander to size the neck.

And Redding tells you if the neck thickness varies .002 or more to select a smaller bushing and use the expander to set the inside diameter. This pushes the neck thickness variations to the outside of the neck as it should.

The first question to ask when it comes to bushing dies is if the OP has a SAAMI chamber.

The second question is what if any gauges they have to check the quality of the brass and neck runout after sizing. And then do they want or plan to neck turn their brass.

The real question to ask before answering a question is do they shoot in competition or just reload for target practice and hunting. And the military considers match grade ammunition to have .003 or less bullet runout.

If you remove the expander from any brand of non-bushing full length die and size the case it will be as concentric as it ever will be. This is because the case body and case neck are held in perfect alignment.

A Forster full length die has a high mounted floating expander. And the neck of the case is held and centered in the neck of the die when the expander enters the case neck. This prevents the neck from being pulled off center and inducing neck runout. And if you think your Forster die is reducing the neck diameter excessively you can have Forster hone the neck to the desired diameter.