Sticky extraction with fire formed rounds 243 Win Imp 40

[bubbancolo]

I bought a used Bullberry Arms 243 Win Improved per stamp on barrel. This is a 20" heavy,1") bull barrel. This barrel shoots 3/8" groups with my fire forming load 31 grains of IMR 4064 using a 100 grain Sierra SP seated to touch the rifling. I've also shot the 105 grain Amax bullet out of formed brass seated about .020 off the lands and can get the same group size, But....I'm having trouble with once fired brass sticking during loading and closing the action and extracting. Both with loaded rounds and with empty once fired brass.

Let me start at the beginning.
I started off using Win 243 brass and loading 31 grains of IMR 4064 behind a Sierra SP 100 grain bullet, I seated these to just touch the lands. NOTE these shot under 3/8" group at 100 yards!!!
I then took the brass and reloaded them as is after running them through a set of Redding Competition Bullet Seating dies, the dies are part # 55420 and state 243 Winchester Imp 40 degree.
When I attempted to load these rounds they tend to stick during closing of the Encore action. Not bad but when you attempt to extract a loaded or empty brass round, it sticks enough to cause me to strike the fore end as I'm opening to force the round out. I then pulled the bullets and thought the brass had stretched a bit during the fire forming operation. This is when I cut all the brass back to 2.710. But I still get the sticky extraction and insertion. I trimmed back to 2.670 and still had trouble.

I went back to the standard 243 Win brass and it chambers and extracts like grease.

I started looking at the fireformed brass for reasons and did see where the top outside diameter of brass below where shoulder begins measures .454 and the stock 243 is .450.

I tried a standard 243 sizing die and worked the brass through it part way. I then measured the top of body at .451, But still had sticky extraction, but it did help insertion. I continued to run sizer down but this caused the sharp 40 degree angle to round off, but brass would chamber and extract with no problems. I backed off the sizer until shoulder wasn't being touched anymore,,very objective) and brass started sticking during extraction again. This seems to vary somewhat from case to case.

I did test rounds that had only been fireformed and NOT run through die but they also stick during insertion and extraction. I cleaned and looked into chamber, I see nothing to cause this. But admit I don't have the proper tools to examine chamber surface.

Wouldn't fireforming guarantee it would fit the chamber no matter what? The brass should have expanded and filled new chamber size then shrank a bit. I've owned a 7-30 Water Bullberry Imp and a 309 JDJ and this fireforming method worked great. How can a round that fits prior to fireforming not extract without sticking or during insertion after being fired? I really don't know where the brass is sticking at seems to be somewhere along the body of brass. I used a felt marker and marked up neck and shoulder to see if it was contacting and found no contact, I did see light marks at outside top of body below the 40 degree shoulder.

Only thing I can think of is that my fire forming load is creating over pressure and stretching the brass near the rim where the dies can't size. This load is out of a reloading book on standard 243 Win and is listed as a min load. I've read on your website that you want a hotter load but I assumed this was to fully pop the shoulder and can't think of any reason why this would cause my sticky extraction.

Can you help me?

 

[Lane]

Head-space issue in my view. Reduction of case diameter affects other case dimensions. I would advise you measure your master fire-formed case for neck thickness, the body/shoulder junction, .40 inch ahead of the base of the case and the datum length compared to SAAMI minimum and case length. After any resizing measure the case dimensions and check the case datum length. It may be the case body is reduced and the case to shoulder length is increased and the result is difficult to chamber or extract. The datum length needs to be correctly adjusted with your die in my view. The .243 Winchester base to datum length is 1.634 / 1.627. Your A.I. Your on your own, however your base to datum length and correctly adjusted re-size die is the place I would seriously look into. If you have concentricity gage you can run your master fire formed case at all the case points and check your particular chamber for any run-out. It could be the particular chamber is a little out of round and your fire-formed cases have run-out. If this were the case your re size die would have to reduce the case enough to account for this. Hope you find the solution to the problem, best wishes Lane

 

[acloco]

Or a tight necked chamber.

Blacken a sized case at the neck, shoulder, and upper 3/8" of the body...load in rifle, and look for the rub mark,s).

The chamber may only need to be polished - which you can do with some Flitz and a shotgun bore mop.

 

[jb77]

Bubbancolo,it sounds like you are an experienced reloader, if you are confident that you are not bulging the shoulder or the body of the case by having your resize die set too low, I would make a chamber cast with cerrosafe and make sure that I had a 40 degree shoulder. Measure your resize die also, don't take it for granted that it is right just because the label says so.


Just out of curiosity why did the previous owner sell this barrel? Was he having the same problems I wonder?

I have only heard very positive things about the Bullberry barrels.

Good Luck.

 

[bubbancolo]

First off you are right Bullberry is GREAT!
I talked with them yesterday. He asked about horizontal streaking marks along length of brass. One thing he thought of is that my chamber might have chatter marks from the reamer. He had me check this and also to check brass by smoking it up and inserting it. Another thought he had was to firmform a indexed round where I would remove and reinsert the brass exactly as it was fired with relation to it's position inside the chamber,12 o-clock)
I instead started looking at the brass on my freshly fire formed brass and saw a lot of rough contact areas where brass had a dull finish instead of the shiny finish. I also saw horizontal lines about a 1/8" in width. I looked closer into chamber,something I didn't do before) I can't find my bore light.....but did see light rust matching the horizontal marks in brass. I used a "0" steal wool and a fiberglass tent rod in my drill and polished the chamber out. But I still had sticky extraction. I inked up a round that had only been fireformed and not resized and insert it into the barrel which was removed from action. I used a fiberglass hammer to tap it into chamber because it wouldn't seat all the way by hand. I then used a cleaning rod to tap it out. I still found those horizontal lines or areas the entire length of chamber. Where the rust sure didn't help, it was very light and might still be present and I think the lines of contact the entire length of chamber can't be just rusty spots. I will send this back to Bullberry and inform them about the light rust in chamber and have them check for rust damage and chatter marks. I'm willing to pay for rust damage repair, but if issue boils down to chatter Bullberry said they will replace or repair for free. I will work with them on repair costs, they shouldn't have to replace a rusty chamber issue. In fact the dies don't make sense either. These are Redding dies and there are three dies which were included in sale from ebay, full sizing die with decapper pin, full body die, competition seating die. Bullberry said that it was weird that someone would order the full body die and then order a full length die in addition, normally you order a neck sizer die with decapper and then the full body die. I'm sending Bullberry the dies and barrel. Based on write ups on this site I wonder if rechambering this into the AI version would be enough to clean up chamber. AI has a shoulder of .460 and Win Imp a .455 shoulder, don't know about the rest of body.

So I think I found out why the previous owner sold barrel....ebay "don't figure" but I've not shot a Encore barrel that shoots this good and am willing to have it fixed.

 

[jb77]

Thanks for the update. I am hoping that Santa Claus or Fedex will be bringing me a Bullberry this Christmas.

I would like to have a 6mmAI for my Encore.

I hate ebay, just for the record. Trust issues I guess hahaha.

Let us know how this issue turns out.

 

[bubbancolo]

I do buy on ebay Encore barrels because either TC or Bullberry are great at unlimited lifetime warrenties. Same goes for RCBS stuff. This will be the first time I've been screwed on a deal.
If my problem is the rust then "yes I did get screwed with no recourse". Tempted to file a negitive report on seller depending on outcome from Bullberry. Problem is that then they have full rights to file a negative on you. I think I'll email that guy and see what he says about this....

 

[bubbancolo]

Got my barrel back last night from Bullberry. He cleaned up chamber, looks like he ran the reamer down it .001 deeper to clean it up. It had a some light rust. But then he fireformed a round in the chamber and was able to re-insert with no problems. He claims that the dies are not correct. He had to adjust the full length die down absoutely as hard as possible and then run brass through the body die to get the "resized" brass to reinsert into chamber. He thinks someone has reamed out the sizer die to match thier chamber and that is why is doesn't work anymore. Fred at Bullberry doesn't believe in neck sizing only. He says on a breach action like the TC that you need to size the body .001 and the shoulder .0005.

I will order new dies from Redding and report back.