Starting up from scratch. Need advice.

[Jester560]

For the press, I would suggest a Lyman All American 8 turret press. I love mine and it loads fantastic ammo. The extra turrets are cheap and available on Amazon. Best part is, once you set up a set of dies, they are always set.

For the powder dispenser, I love my Lyman Gen 6. It has been accurate and reliable for years now.

 

[K22]

Lots of good advice here. I'll add my 2 cents in order of priority.

1. If you can find a mentor that knows what he or she is doing this will save you a lot of time, money effort, and missteps.

2. Your focus on quality equipment is the correct mentality in my opinion but I would keep it as simple as possible learning basic sound reloading techniques then later moving forward to more advanced techniques later as you master the basic fundamentals.

3. The Lyman Reloading Handbook is a good place to start. Read it, study it, and understand not only what to do but why. Be careful of the internet, there is a lot of misinformation out there. However, this forum is one of the best places to seek reliable answers to your questions.

4. I've trained a number of new reloaders, and I've recommended that they start with a quality single stage press and conventional full length sizing dies. The least complicated the setup, the easier it will be for you. I've been using this set up for 50 years to produce high quality precise reloads.

5. The one issue that can be somewhat confusing and complicated to a new reloader is sizing bottleneck cases. However, this is a very important step in reloading. I won't go into here, but it is important that you learn how to set up your sizing die to attain optimum sizing. This can be handled on a separate post or better yet, a mentor. Personally, I would not neck size - again I won't go into the rationale here, there are numerous posts on this subject in this forum. Once you understand concepts involved, you will find that it not that complicated.

 

[Todd-67]

Lots of good advice here. I'll add my 2 cents in order of priority.

1. If you can find a mentor that knows what he or she is doing this will save you a lot of time, money effort, and missteps.

2. Your focus on quality equipment is the correct mentality in my opinion but I would keep it as simple as possible learning basic sound reloading techniques then later moving forward to more advanced techniques later as you master the basic fundamentals.

3. The Lyman Reloading Handbook is a good place to start. Read it, study it, and understand not only what to do but why. Be careful of the internet, there is a lot of misinformation out there. However, this forum is one of the best places to seek reliable answers to your questions.

4. I've trained a number of new reloaders, and I've recommended that they start with a quality single stage press and conventional full length sizing dies. The least complicated the setup, the easier it will be for you. I've been using this set up for 50 years to produce high quality precise reloads.

5. The one issue that can be somewhat confusing and complicated to a new reloader is sizing bottleneck cases. However, this is a very important step in reloading. I won't go into here, but it is important that you learn how to set up your sizing die to attain optimum sizing. This can be handled on a separate post or better yet, a mentor. Personally, I would not neck size - again I won't go into the rationale here, there are numerous posts on this subject in this forum. Once you understand concepts involved, you will find that it not that complicated.

Your last paragraph (well the entire post) is spot on where my focus is at this time. Dropping powder and seating primers and bullets is pretty straight forward (not discounting the importance of it). My step son and brother both reload pistol calibers and from what I have observed, that is very easy.

I enjoy chasing exact measurements when making things. While the information and variables are vast in reloading I think I will enjoy the journey here in hitting exact numbers. I know I would be disapointed if the equipment that I buy would hamper being able to achieve the precision that I am after.

 

[JimSC]

I know I would be disapointed if the equipment that I buy would hamper being able to achieve the precision that I am after.

When I was a apprentice machinist I was taught a saying that I never forgot. "It's the poor mechanic, that blames his tools" Technique and natural abilities are what separates the top three from the rest of the pack in every competition from the Nationals down to the local club match. Go to the nationals and every shooter participating will be using top of the line equipment and yet there will still be the top three and the bottom three. Most of the "advice" and suggestions you find on forums will boil down to "buy what I use because I am the smartest one here"

 

[powderbrake]

I would recommend the RCBS single stage press, (a Rockchucker). It will always be useful, even if you eventually have other presses. I have two Dillons running, and a Harrells, but my old (about 50 years) Rockchucker is still used frequently and makes accurate ammo.

STAY AWAY FROM NECK SIZING ONLY. I have been there and done that. I have gone back to full length sizing, even if all the cases are used in a single gun. neck sizing has no real advantage.

Buy full length bushing style dies. I like the Redding Competition dies, custom dies can be acquired in the future as your needs materialize.
While the Rockchucker can prime, for volume get a RCBS Automatic Priming Tool, and a 21st Century hand primer for small volume.

The Chargemaster will serve your purpose, as will a powder measure Harrells and Culver style are very good. If you stay at it, and advance in areas like benchrest, F class, PRS etc, you will eventually want an A&D 12fxi scale, fitted with a V4 or other powder drop/trickler.

Forget the annealer for now. 223 brass is so cheap and available, you dont have to anneal at this time.

All the stuff I have recommended, I also have and use, even though I have better scales, some custom dies, progressive presses, annealer, and other reloading stuff. What I mean is, you will not be selling this stuff in the future to help buy a "better" item, you will be able to keep them in use.

I also suggest you consider a bore scope. I like (and use) the Teslong wi fi model that is viewable on my iphone or PC. It is VERY useful in helping you properly clean your barrel.

Eventually you will need a chronograph. You will need the chronograph to help you develop your loads and bullet seating depth. I recommend the Labradar with a trigger add on, and set on a small travel tripod. I also have a Magnetospeed, and it is excellent, BUT it hangs on the barrel, and will change your group location, you will need to refire a group without it in place to get the correct group.

As I posted this, I noticed the end of the previous post above, and I did recommend stuff I use.
NO, I AM NOT THE SMARTEST GUY HERE.
I do use this stuff, and stuff like it for 50+ years of reloading. I have owned and used 20 different progressive and single stage presses, both metallic cartridge and shotshell, lots of different powder scales and throwers, and 4 different chronographs. I based my recommendations on my EXPERIENCES with these products, my shooting experiences, my experience as a design engineer, and my experience in running manufacturing companies. I do not claim my recommendations are the BEST products, just that they are adequate or superior to the needs of the OP.

 

[WyleWD]

I see you live in Ohio. I will suggest you spend some of your effort on finding a mentor. Odds are strong that if there are clubs or ranges, that is a good place to research for a mentor.

Excellent advice. ^^^^^

If you're wanting to focus at 300yds, there's a few ranges with 1-300yds around but not a lot of GOOD ones. Also, there's a fellow by the name Jack Neary who lives in Ohio, you many have heard of him. He started a "Mentor Program" in the NBRSA for fellows like you. He's a very approachable fellow and obviously has great connections. A call to him and discuss what you'd like to would be a great idea IMHO. His contact information should be readily available on the NBRSA website.

What part of Ohio do you live in, and I might be able to help with a local contact. WD

 

[Bat Rastard]

Looks like you are a fellow motorcycle enthusiast.

Are there any downsides to that press? Looking at it from a design perspective it appears to be well thought out and overbuilt in a good way.

I like the mechanical advantage that they claim as I have a right wrist injury (shattered and pinned) that would appreciate that during a long session. The only downside that I could imagine with that is loosing a little feel. From my experince with press fits in manufacturing you can tell when things are assembling correctly vs. something being off.



I haven't gotten the consensus on presses either but the information provided is still helpful. The ones mentioned seem to all be quality units. The MEC and Foster were two that were not on the radar before this thread.

The chronograph issue is one that I have on the list. I need to get some equipment together first before I step into actually loading and testing. I consider this as verification equipment which is second step in acquisition .

LabRadar was/is on the list. Magnetospeed is another. There are numerous other options available but those two allow setup/use without crossing in front of the firing line. LabRadar has had it's challenges with getting components to fulfill orders with their full featured units. I am not sure if that has gotten better recently or not.


Harrell's is no doubt well respected equipment. I may be (probably) off base with my opinion on dies but my head is to buy quality mass produced units to start with and upgrade those if/when the need comes up. As mentioned top shooters do order custom setups based on their chamber cuts. Currently I am shooting stock barrel/rifles. When it comes time to building one or re-barreling that may come into play.

I would like to think that I am on the path to being a "bench rest" shooter. I am getting into centerfire rifle late in life. Currently I am working on developing/refining my skill set for personal satisfaction but I competed in sporting clays years ago and loved it so competing would be extremely rewarding but I won't waste mine or anyone else's time unless i am competitive.

There are so called experts everywhere that give bad advice. You are going to run into that locally and on the internet. This is why I am here. I have spent a lot of time on various forums and this place seems to have less BS than the others. The local guys that I have talked to are all over the map with advice. You have a faction that is stuck in the past and you have the bulk blasters that are trying to save money producing mass quantities per session. I have zero illusions about reloading saving money.



The entire game of precision shooting is a rabbit hole/money soak in both rifles and ancillaries. It's sort of related to racing. It takes a modest amount of money to improve performance but it takes a substantial investment/knowledge to be fast.

What i have learned from chasing small groups in rimfire is that the next rifle I buy is going straight the Lapua testing center and a large purchase of ammo will follow. It's really not all that more expensive in the long run when considering all the time and money trying to find the right combo by trial and error. I wouldn't trade the knowledge learned by doing it on my own but being confined to using mass produced ammo I would rather spend the time shooting than testing.

A huge thank you to all that have replied. The information is extremely helpful.

-Todd

I am indeed a motorcycle enthusiast. The pic is of a much younger me on the 85 FXRS I bought new.
Sadly, I no longer have it. Proudly, my son does!. I have evolved to baggers.

I do not have the Forster press, but I believe them to be the bomb. I do have, and aquired in this order, Dillion 550, RockChucker, MEC Marksman, Lyman Ideal, Lee APP, and finished out with a Redding T-7.
They each have a purpose, and I like them all. Had I went with the Co-Ax I likely would have eliminated at least 3 of the 4 single stages on my bench. Forsters free floating dies and quick die changes check a lot of boxes.

I do like having an extra single stage solely for decapping, and a small press to take to the range every once in a while.

 

[K22]

Your last paragraph (well the entire post) is spot on where my focus is at this time. Dropping powder and seating primers and bullets is pretty straight forward (not discounting the importance of it). My step son and brother both reload pistol calibers and from what I have observed, that is very easy.

I enjoy chasing exact measurements when making things. While the information and variables are vast in reloading I think I will enjoy the journey here in hitting exact numbers. I know I would be disapointed if the equipment that I buy would hamper being able to achieve the precision that I am after.

You'll do fine, a lot of reloading success can be traced to personality types that are detailed oriented and take pride in producing precise items whether it be reloading, work working, metal working etc.

Reloading straight wall pistol cases is fairly straight forward. It's where I started back in the late 60's. The significant issue there is having a "fail safe" system of charging cases to avoid a double charge or missing charging a case.

Reloading bottle neck rifle cases is more involved but it's not rocket science either. It can be very rewarding tailoring your ammo to your rifle and obtaining the maximum capability of your rifle.

RCBS, Lyman and Redding are equipment brands I'm familiar with. They make quality products. RCBS's customer services, in my experience is outstanding. Not saying that the other brands are inferior, just these are the brands I'm familiar with the most.

I always advise new reloaders to prioritize the effort as follows: safety first; next producing reloads that will cycle in the firearm without issues, and thirdly, attaining the precision needed for the discipline you will engage in.

Stick with published and tested load data. Don't venture into Joe's "pet load" unless it's backed up with published and tested data. Learn how to read pressure signs. Keeping a neat and uncluttered reloading bench (work area) will help prevent mistakes. Don't try to reload when you are rushed with other issues in your life - it's one of the proven ways to make mistakes - I know from personal experience. Keeping precise reloading records in also important. I found long time ago, that keeping a range notebook making notes of each range session to be very helpful in improving marksmanship skills. Good luck and best wishes.

 

[Bill Norris]

Number 1 is SAFETY and can be obtained from any good reloading manual. As some have pointed out already keep it simple with a single stage press and good quality F/L Bushing dies. ( I use the RCBS Rock chucker press and Redding & Wilson dies ) Both will serve you well and as you learn more about the technique of manipulating the press handle to achieve the quality handloads these tools will work well for you. The idea of getting a mentor close-by would be very valuable especially early on. The other great advice is simply stay plugged into this Forum. There is no better nowhere and this will become evident to you very soon.

 

[Doom]

Eventually you will need a chronograph. You will need the chronograph to help you develop your loads and bullet seating depth. I recommend the Labradar with a trigger add on, and set on a small travel tripod. I also have a Magnetospeed, and it is excellent, BUT it hangs on the barrel, and will change your group location, you will need to refire a group without it in place to get the correct group.

Key word here is "Eventually". The target will give you the information you need for load development. This is especially true if you are reloading for 300 yds. For 1000 yds it's different and you need to analyze your reloading consistency closely. Before you go into the rabbit hole on the chronograph I would recommend you go here:

How To Predict The Future – Statistics For Shooters Part 1

I actually believe the average shooter might get more value from this Statistics for Shooters serie...

precisionrifleblog.com

It's a three part series on Testing and Data analysis.

This thread is one of the best I've seen on reloading equipment for the beginner. We don't all agree on every point but if you follow the recommendations here you won't go wrong!

 

[Todd-67]

Excellent advice. ^^^^^

If you're wanting to focus at 300yds, there's a few ranges with 1-300yds around but not a lot of GOOD ones. Also, there's a fellow by the name Jack Neary who lives in Ohio, you many have heard of him. He started a "Mentor Program" in the NBRSA for fellows like you. He's a very approachable fellow and obviously has great connections. A call to him and discuss what you'd like to would be a great idea IMHO. His contact information should be readily available on the NBRSA website.

What part of Ohio do you live in, and I might be able to help with a local contact. WD

Well isn't that convenient. Jack is located in the adjacent town from me. probably no further than 5 miles. I may drop him a line and see what mentoring programs he is associated with.

I am not wanting to be confined to 300yds but that is where I am at with the range I am a member of. it's really flat up here and there are not a lot of longer ranges to go to. I love my current clubs location and focus on safety. I have met a lot of nice people there although I am more of a person that likes to stay to themselves. I don't get as much range time as I would like so when I go I would rather shoot than chit chat.

The club I shoot at is only a hour from Camp Perry. We do have shooters/members that shoot the competitions there. I have only met one of them but there are others that do from what I am told.

 

[Todd-67]

When I was a apprentice machinist I was taught a saying that I never forgot. "It's the poor mechanic, that blames his tools" Technique and natural abilities are what separates the top three from the rest of the pack in every competition from the Nationals down to the local club match. Go to the nationals and every shooter participating will be using top of the line equipment and yet there will still be the top three and the bottom three. Most of the "advice" and suggestions you find on forums will boil down to "buy what I use because I am the smartest one here"

I cut my teeth in Engineering getting schooled by the guys in the tool room. I have a lot of respect for them. I often work with guys that have shops with basic old equipment that are quite capable of putting modern day CNC shops to shame precision wise. They know their equipment.

You can't spend your way into success in anything in life but there are way too many substandard products on the market that are best avoided by asking some basic questions. Talking to a wide audience of people that have hands on experince with certain equipment is all taken with a grain of salt but is very helpful in at least discussing what is out there.

 

[Todd-67]

Key word here is "Eventually". The target will give you the information you need for load development. This is especially true if you are reloading for 300 yds. For 1000 yds it's different and you need to analyze your reloading consistency closely. Before you go into the rabbit hole on the chronograph I would recommend you go here:

How To Predict The Future – Statistics For Shooters Part 1

I actually believe the average shooter might get more value from this Statistics for Shooters serie...

precisionrifleblog.com

It's a three part series on Testing and Data analysis.

This thread is one of the best I've seen on reloading equipment for the beginner. We don't all agree on every point but if you follow the recommendations here you won't go wrong!

I will take a look at that series.

For me right now the chronograph would mainly serve the purpose of checking the load against the predicted velocity (safety purposes) and the ES/SD spreads for consistency. Verification and validation. I think at the ranges I shoot max velocity is less important than finding accuracy nodes. Again I may be wrong in this.

 

[6MMsteve]

If your gonna shoot comp find a wing to get under first, then get good equipment take out the variables

 

[Doom]

I will take a look at that series.

For me right now the chronograph would mainly serve the purpose of checking the load against the predicted velocity (safety purposes) and the ES/SD spreads for consistency. Verification and validation. I think at the ranges I shoot max velocity is less important than finding accuracy nodes. Again I may be wrong in this.

A word of caution on predicted velocity and load. Seldom is accuracy found at maximum load. Also the velocities quoted are often from test barrels and with test chambers so your velocity/load may not tract. They are also usually from 24"barrels.

Since you are loading for 300yds SD/ES numbers don't mean much in accuracy/precision. Working on consistency in the reloading process is more about what you do, not what you measure. This is a rabbit hole you need to avoid going down.

 

[Bill Norris]

Doom Said​

Working on consistency in the reloading process is more about what you do, not what you measure.

Absolutely agree 100 %. Technique Matters.

 

[JimSC]

I beleive that all modern reloading equipment functions pretty much the same, and can produce good results when used properly. Some is more convenient to use and can be prettier in fit and finish but that is about it

Presses are a good example. The only function of a press is to move the brass in and out of the dies. That is all it does. I assume most everyone here realizes what a press fit is, and as such would acknowledge that when a case is inserted into a sizing die that no amount of "slop" in the linkage can cause that case to be in anything except perfect alignment with the inside of the die.

Speaking of sizing dies they are all cut with a through reamer, very similar to a chambering reamer. The neck and body are cut in a single operation. Whether it's a custom made die or a $20 Lee that neck is going to be perfectly parallel with the axis of the case body and any concentricity lost will be after the walls of die are no longer in contact with the brass.

That custom die might be prettier but the $20 die is just as capable of producing a concentric round. Some of the high dollar stuff is convenience. A micrometer seating die is much easier to use than a standard seating die but it is still just providing a fixed point for the bullet to stop against so it is forced into the neck as the case is raised. You do want the bullet to be contacting on the ogive, not the meplat but that is the prime suspect for me if the measurements are off.

I use a AMP to anneal, does the "perfect" anneal give me anymore accuracy than when I used a torch and drill? Doubtful.

Anyway just my opinion. I long ago realized I will never be in the 1% of the 1% of all marksmen, Now I just have fun

 

[powderbrake]

Key word here is "Eventually". The target will give you the information you need for load development. This is especially true if you are reloading for 300 yds. For 1000 yds it's different and you need to analyze your reloading consistency closely. Before you go into the rabbit hole on the chronograph I would recommend you go here:

How To Predict The Future – Statistics For Shooters Part 1

I actually believe the average shooter might get more value from this Statistics for Shooters serie...

precisionrifleblog.com

It's a three part series on Testing and Data analysis.

This thread is one of the best I've seen on reloading equipment for the beginner. We don't all agree on every point but if you follow the recommendations here you won't go wrong!

Doom:
Thank you for the link to the statistics series. I just read it, and it is very interesting. I will recheck some of my targets using the Mean Radius function in On Target.

 

[Emmett Dibble]

I haven’t read though all the responses but enough to see you basicly asked which oil to use on a motor sports forum….

Find a mentor if possible. There are a TON of you tube video’s aimed at new reloaders that you should be able to get a handle on things pretty quick if you have reloaded shot shells in the past.

Don’t be a test pilot. Only VERY experienced reloaders stray outside the norm/published data and they usually do with experience on their side.

If you only have 300 yards you are going to shoot at, and until you are doing something like bench rest, don’t worry about annealing.

Pick a cartridge you are going to shoot a lot of, learn on it, make small adjustements and see what effects it and what doesn’t… it’s really the only way to get experience. Then again, if you only plink and are wanting something resembling MOA or slightly better, the basics on any known cartridge will get you there pretty quick and then spend as little time loading and more time shooting as possible.

Good luck, most people who are high volume or precision shooters load from necessity, not because they enjoy it (I definitely fall into that category), if all I shot was 5.56 and 9mm, I’d spend my time and effort buying when on sale and completely forgo reloading.

 

[JimSC]

. I will recheck some of my targets using the Mean Radius function in On Target.

An excellent software tool and $35 well spent imho. I love the CEP function myself and the ability to import point data from several groups in order to get more statistically relevant numbers.

For those not familiar with CEP

Circular Error Probable​

and a link to the Ontarget software site

OnTarget Programs​