Starting over... Help

[PD Gohil]

Savage ba stealth 24" barrel. Hornady 1x brass, federal 210 primers Berger 156 seated to mag length. Reloader 16.
Hunting rifle out to 6-700 yards, steel out to a thousand.


Looking back at my last few weeks of data I have too many inconsistencies. So I'm going to start all over. And of course I have some questions.

1) find pressure first? Or seating depth?

2) planing on .4gr/ ladder rung for a 39-42gr test. Too tight? Not tight enough?

Another thing I keep noticing. My first shot in a string is usually 30 to 50 FPS slower than the rest of the string. How do I deal with this?

Thanks all
PGohil
WV

 

[David Christian]

1. Find coarse powder charge first, then seating depth, then fine powder test.
2. For that particular set up, I might go with .2 to .3 grain increments for coarse, then .1 grains for fine.
3. Shoot 3-5 shots to warm up the barrel before you start your string.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Warming up a hunting rifle? I use powder charge weight to tune for minimal vertical dispersion, seating depth for best group. Then First shot zero. I usually shoot 1 shot a week or so apart on same target(rifle travels in between) for 5 shots. It must hold the original load development group size for the month long test. No flags 100 yard test, hopefully similar conditions.

 

[Evan]

For hunting rifles I shoot one and let it cool for 5 or more minutes, then shoot another.

I do not bother with fine powder changes with hunting rifles and think your 0.4gns is perfectly adequate. I shoot the whole ladder at 300yards and watch for the POI to stabilize across a range of powder charges and then choose the middle of the range. Then play with seating depth and 3 cold bore shots to see if the I can gain anything. If accuracy is lacking, I switch bullets. If the 156 doesn't pan out, I've had fantastic results with the 143 ELDX.

First shot is slow? Do you run a dry patch down the bore after the oil patch when cleaning?

 

[PD Gohil]

For hunting rifles I shoot one and let it cool for 5 or more minutes, then shoot another.

I do not bother with fine powder changes with hunting rifles and think your 0.4gns is perfectly adequate. I shoot the whole ladder at 300yards and watch for the POI to stabilize across a range of powder charges and then choose the middle of the range. Then play with seating depth and 3 cold bore shots to see if the I can gain anything. If accuracy is lacking, I switch bullets. If the 156 doesn't pan out, I've had fantastic results with the 143 ELDX.

First shot is slow? Do you run a dry patch down the bore after the oil patch when cleaning?

Y
always a dry patch. But I get a slow reading on every Cold bore shot. Even with a previously fouled barrel.

 

[Evan]

Same POI? If it's just slow on the chrono but otherwise shoots to the same point, who cares?

Ultimately, that's why you want to let the gun fully cool between each shot when working on your loads. That first one is the one you'll make on an animal, and it's the one that needs to go where you point it.

 

[Evan]

I just looked up your rifle, and have a couple thoughts:

• It has a heavy barrel and shouldn't be overly bothered with 5 shot groups. I thought you had a pencil barrel hunting rifle. That said, no reason to shoot 5 if that doesn't fit your usage.
  
• How reliable is your chrono? 30-50fps isn't normal for quality handloads. Is this only on the first shot? Does it happen if you fire two groups back to back with only enough of a pause to reload the magazine?
• It would take losing 0.5gns or more in my 6.5 Creedmoor to drop 50fps.
  
• RL16 never worked very well in my 6.5 Creedmoor. It did like RL17, IMR4350, and H4831 though.

 

[Metal God]

Another thing I keep noticing. My first shot in a string is usually 30 to 50 FPS slower than the rest of the string. How do I deal with this?

Do you load your mag or do you single load ? Either way I was having that same issue and it turned out to be that as I drove to the range/shooting spot . The vibration of my ammo in the car on the very bumpy dirt road caused my powder to settle in the case . This resulted in the first shot always having a tighter packed powder charge then the next shots fired from the mag . The recoil from the first shot loosened up the packed powder in the rest of the rounds in the mag resulting in a more consistent shot to shot ES/SD for the rest in the mag .

Two things fixed the problem . First was to shake the whole box of ammo before opening the lid and loading the rifle . Second was transporting the ammo boxes sideways so the cartridge's were laying flat rather then pointed up not allowing the powder to pack tightly down towards the base/head of the case . All better now ;-)

I recommend finding pressure first with your bullet seated as long as it will ever be . Then if need be , adjust seating depth off/away from the lands . You generally don't want to adjust to the lands because as you approach the lands start pressures will rise .

My general rule is 1% of max charge . Meaning If your charge is going to be in the 40's then .4gr increments , in the 50's .5gr increments and for 223 I do .3gr increments, If it's just a plinking load I usually do .5gr

 

[PD Gohil]

Ladder test from this morning. I am pretty sure my chronograph is on the blink.
38.7 2412
39.0 2784
39.3 2629
39.6 2635
39.9 2655
40.2 2719
41.5 2923
41.8 2863
42.1 2861
42.3 2551

4 warm up shots with factory ammo then a 3 min break, The rest of the shots were sequential with exactly one minute of rest between loading and firing.

 

[PD Gohil]

Btw, this is at 200 yards.

 

[Evan]

If you want to go fast, then you could repeat up at the top charges - there isn't much vertical in the top two shots - and see if that node is wider. Otherwise you've got a pretty good looking spot from 39-40.

Edit: I think your Chrono is malfunctioning, but you don't need it for load development.

 

[Nightraider]

Ladder test from this morning. I am pretty sure my chronograph is on the blink.
38.7 2412
39.0 2784
39.3 2629
39.6 2635
39.9 2655
40.2 2719
41.5 2923
41.8 2863
42.1 2861
42.3 2551

4 warm up shots with factory ammo then a 3 min break, The rest of the shots were sequential with exactly one minute of rest between loading and firing.

41.8/42.1 is a nice node

 

[PD Gohil]

39.9 shot well. Averaging 1/2Moa overall for 3 shots. This isn't a BR Rifle, so 3 works for me. My chronograph on the other hand has gone loco.

2606
2595
2609
2615
2616
Pretty decent numbers. So I took about 20 minutes or so at the barrel cool down completely and reloaded five more at the same weight. Temperature probably warmed up 8° during that time.

2725
2778
2758
2755
2750
How did I gain 150fps???

Sets of 3 next
2622
2645
2669

2673
2684
2682

2603
2643
2678

Pretty sure my chronograph is full of manure!

 

[Zero333]

Judging by the first ladder...

39.0
39.3
39.6

Play with the seating depth.

Never mind the chrono.

Once you have a solid load, then chrono it.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Shoot at your ladder target 40.3 and 40.4. See if the node you are in is a bit wider than your ladder shows. If 40.3 stays in vertical. Bump your load to a nice even 40.0, fresh battery in the chronograph and get an average that you can confirm at your max hunting distance(against the ballistic chart).

 

[PD Gohil]

The problem with not using the chronograph, is that you may end up with a great tight group that has a horrible SD. I'd like to work on both. For me one half MOA everyday every group is my goal. Right now I'm going to take a break save my nickels and dimes, and buy a labradar when the funds allow.

I sure do appreciate everyone's help.

Thanks
PGohil
WV

 

[RegionRat]

I'm curious what chrono type you were using? If the temps changed 8 degrees while waiting for the bbl to cool off in that session, I am wondering if the sun light was playing on your chrono?

I agree you need to debug those velocities sooner rather than later. I don't want to go down the Savage firing pin rabbit hole, but if those velocity changes are due to ignition you will want to stop and fix that up front to avoid wasting your load work.

 

[PD Gohil]

Shooting chrony beta. It's very possible that the sunlight was causing an issue. But this has been time and time again I get screwy readings. Before I always blamed it on factory loads being inconsistent but now that I'm hand loading and I know the precision and efforts I'm putting in to making sure every round is a similar responsible to the previous I should not be getting big jumps in velocity up and down.

 

[Evan]

If you're absolutely sold on the validity of monitoring chronograph numbers and SD in specific, then you HAVE to shoot 5 shots. 5 data points is the mathematical minimum to calculate SD. Statistically speaking, SD derived from 5 points is meaningless. If you want it to mean much you should have 10 or more shots to calculate with. I would really recommend changing your focus to ES if you're going to shoot 5 or less shots in a group.

I'd get a more accurate chronograph. Yours is not going to give you reliable data, even when it is working correctly, to calculate SD from without considerable effort. A magnetospeed or if you have extra money around, a Labradar will be much more reliable. My Magnetospeed Sporter was $130 on sale and has been absolutely trouble free with none of the drawbacks of traditional chronographs.

 

[PD Gohil]

If you're absolutely sold on the validity of monitoring chronograph numbers and SD in specific, then you HAVE to shoot 5 shots. 5 data points is the mathematical minimum to calculate SD. Statistically speaking, SD derived from 5 points is meaningless. If you want it to mean much you should have 10 or more shots to calculate with. I would really recommend changing your focus to ES if you're going to shoot 5 or less shots in a group.

I'd get a more accurate chronograph. Yours is not going to give you reliable data, even when it is working correctly, to calculate SD from without considerable effort. A magnetospeed or if you have extra money around, a Labradar will be much more reliable. My Magnetospeed Sporter was $130 on sale and has been absolutely trouble free with none of the drawbacks of traditional chronographs.

Evan,

Thanks for your reply. I understand where you're coming from about SD calculations and too small of a population with five shots or less. You are right and I will work more on ES reduction.

Thank you
PGohil
WV