Stainless Steel Media Cleaner & Neck Tension

[Mozella]

I don't worry mine hit the road after the first using.. So did the brass. When I found small particles of stainless in the water.
When you wipe a lobe on a camshaft and the oil is filtered and you trash a motor from particles the filter missed. I knew it wasn't something I want in my gun or down the barrel.
If particles of stainless is in the water some is imbed in the brass. You can do what you want.
But never for me. Larry

Here's my take.

The wash water I get after SS wet media tumbling is always filthy. I'm glad the gunk goes down the drain rather than accumulating in a batch of dry media which recycles it during the next tumbling process. After pouring off most of the wash water, I separate the SS media and then rinse both the brass and the SS media. Normally, there is a tiny bit of heavy stuff left in addition to the SS pins. I've taken a look at it, and of course I found a bit of very fine SS in the first batch. This is perfectly sensible since I imagine a certain amount of small SS filings and metal dust would be associated with the media manufacturing process.

But now, with well used media, I find mostly little pieces of brass and other heavy stuff not identifiable with ordinary magnification. I imagine most of this is left overs from trimming, primer pocket reaming, and the tiny particles which are bound to be scuffed off during primer seating and/or bullet seating. Some of it might be a by-product of the powder, brass, bullet, or primer manufacturing processes; I really don't know. All I know is that it has been removed from my cases and is sitting in the bottom edge of one of my rinse buckets.


I say GOOD. That's exactly where I want these little particles to be; in my wash water which I pour down the drain, not sitting in my cases or in a batch of dry media.

I suppose if someone were really worried about contaminating their brass, they could tumble and rinse just the SS media a few times before using it on brass, but that seems a little over the top to me.

I don't have an electron microscope mounted next to my loading press, but I have looked closely at my cleaned brass under reasonably high magnification and I've never found anything imbedded in the brass.

I've also built and re-built my fair share of racing engines and I hear what you're saying about contamination. However, I consider engines and cartridges as pretty much apples and oranges except to agree that cleanliness is generally a good thing, but you could say that about personal hygiene too..................... or at least some of us could.

 

[amlevin]

How much does a person expect to gain and where by having the brass spotless apart from being obsessive compulsive about cleanliness?

One of our local BR shooters actually weighed his cases before and after cleaning. With some powders, and depending on how many firings at the range before going home to clean, the "before and after" case weights were as much as .2 gr different. When you clean your cases inside, ultrasonic or ss pin tumbling, there is no reduction of case capacity as opposed to "just letting it ride". For some that's a big deal.

BTW, the guy who did this "test" has held every title in our state at one time or another in BR shooting. Apparently he turns his OCD into results.

 

[Patch700]

How much does a person expect to gain and where by having the brass spotless apart from being obsessive compulsive about cleanliness?

One of our local BR shooters actually weighed his cases before and after cleaning. With some powders, and depending on how many firings at the range before going home to clean, the "before and after" case weights were as much as .2 gr different. When you clean your cases inside, ultrasonic or ss pin tumbling, there is no reduction of case capacity as opposed to "just letting it ride". For some that's a big deal.

BTW, the guy who did this "test" has held every title in our state at one time or another in BR shooting. Apparently he turns his OCD into results.

The key here is comparing squeaky clean brass with fired brass... Absolutely , with certain calibers and powder choices there is going to be a difference in capacity..
I was refering to cases that are fired and left dirty on the inside and compared with likewise...

My findings have been that the difference between cases that are left fouled inside is so minimal that the juice isnt worth the squeeze.

The differences between cases compared to what the cleaning regime did for my necks is what i based my choice on.

 

[Mikemontminy]

With high magnification you can see very fine stainless particles embed in the brass. That is the big problem. Larry

If the particles are that small, that high magnification is needed, there's an excellent chance that those "particles" are merely vaporized when the round is fired.
After cleaning my last batch of 308 cases in s.s. media I ran the dirty water thru a coffee filter and no particles showed up in the filter.
I'd be more concerned about the "grit" that is used to polish cases when using corn cob media.

I think that is correct that is why I never use lapping compound when cleaning brass. Larry

I'm not sure that anyone (that knows what they're doing) uses lapping compound but many DO use car polish. It contains "grit" that is extremely small but still 'grit'.

Stainless steel media is not polished and by using that it is constantly wearing and the wear particles is in the water and you are imbedding it in the soft brass. You can do it but I wont.
The next time you clean you brass take the sediment at the bottom and rub it between your fingers that is what your imbedding in your brass. Larry

 

[mikecr]

How much does a person expect to gain and where by having the brass spotless apart from being obsessive compulsive about cleanliness?

Well there is no 'gain' in removal of internal carbon residue. So the better question is; How much does a person expect in detriment by having brass spotless? IMO the direct answers would amount to an abstract, with varying levels of seating forces masking tension, and varying seating depths from case to case.

Vibratory tumbling with standard media is way behind AND way ahead. No problems here & nothing to manage.

 

[jlow]

Although I have to admit that a lot of people use the SS-media method because of the bling – that should really very low on the priority list. The same with removal of internal carbon residue.

The real benefit of this method is the lead-contaminated carbon (lead from the primers) stays in the wash and is drained away. The biggest problem with the vibratory tumbler is the lead-contaminated dust that becomes airborne every time you do a case/media separation that gets into your living quarters and can easily be aspirated. If you can "smell" that dust, you are breathing it in.... Speaking as someone with a graduate degree in pharmacology/toxicology, I can tell you small particles like those from the tumbler can get deep into your lungs and get trapped there. Less of a problem for old farts like us but if you have children who in general is particularly sensitive to lead poising, you may want to take notice.

A good way to get rid of any SS particles and sand for that matter is to have a method to thoroughly rinse out the media so the stuff can be rinsed away. I build this setup a few years ago and it works great as it allow all of that stuff to drain through without losing any pins or cases.

 

[LHSmith]

^^^^^ OR......just clean your brass the tried and true method....wipe the outside with a clean cloth and take a pass through the neck with a nylon brush immediately after firing. Preserve the neck carbon and it's excellent lubricity, your $$$$, and wasted time.

 

[jlow]

It's a free country and we can all do what we think works best. Just passing some info that might be useful for folks. 8)

 

[amlevin]

The real benefit of this method is the lead-contaminated carbon (lead from the primers) stays in the wash and is drained away. The biggest problem with the vibratory tumbler is the lead-contaminated dust that becomes airborne every time you do a case/media separation that gets into your living quarters and can easily be aspirated. If you can "smell" that dust, you are breathing it in.... Speaking as someone with a graduate degree in pharmacology/toxicology, I can tell you small particles like those from the tumbler can get deep into your lungs and get trapped there. Less of a problem for old farts like us but if you have children who in general is particularly sensitive to lead poising, you may want to take notice.

I used to drink from that pitcher of Kool-Aid" and did so for as long as vibratory "tumblers" have been around. I thought I was contaminating everything around them and myself with lead just like everyone else.

Funny thing though, after using one for over 30 years I finally decided to see if I was absorbing any of that lead. Mind you now, I am not just an average reloader. I have loaded uncounted thousands of rounds in .38, .357, 9mm, a half dozen rifle calibers, (over 100k of .223 alone) in those years. Other than an occasional vacuuming of my work area and washing my hands after a work session, no special precautions.

The results of my "Lead Test" was on huge ROUND number. ZERO. NONE. NADA. ZILCH.

Maybe it's just "the other guy's" cleaning process that's producing all that lead laden dust.

I think the ones that need to worry most are the "casters" that let their furnaces get a little hot from time to time.

 

[jlow]

The real benefit of this method is the lead-contaminated carbon (lead from the primers) stays in the wash and is drained away. The biggest problem with the vibratory tumbler is the lead-contaminated dust that becomes airborne every time you do a case/media separation that gets into your living quarters and can easily be aspirated. If you can "smell" that dust, you are breathing it in.... Speaking as someone with a graduate degree in pharmacology/toxicology, I can tell you small particles like those from the tumbler can get deep into your lungs and get trapped there. Less of a problem for old farts like us but if you have children who in general is particularly sensitive to lead poising, you may want to take notice.

I used to drink from that pitcher of Kool-Aid" and did so for as long as vibratory "tumblers" have been around. I thought I was contaminating everything around them and myself with lead just like everyone else.

Funny thing though, after using one for over 30 years I finally decided to see if I was absorbing any of that lead. Mind you now, I am not just an average reloader. I have loaded uncounted thousands of rounds in .38, .357, 9mm, a half dozen rifle calibers, (over 100k of .223 alone) in those years. Other than an occasional vacuuming of my work area and washing my hands after a work session, no special precautions.

The results of my "Lead Test" was on huge ROUND number. ZERO. NONE. NADA. ZILCH.

Maybe it's just "the other guy's" cleaning process that's producing all that lead laden dust.

I think the ones that need to worry most are the "casters" that let their furnaces get a little hot from time to time.

I've never tested so I can only say that others that have tested, some have come back with some nasty results. I myself take the safe route.

Coming from the lab environment where we work with both strong carcinogens and radioactive tracers - things that can kill you, I have been trained to take certain precautions to avoid contaminations to myself and others. What I can tell you is when I used the vibratory tumblers, I notice how it was spreading the dust around and there was no obvious way to prevent potential contamination.

In the lab, we would be doing this in a laminar flow hood which would pull all the dust into a filter. Obviously nothing like that is available in my reloading room - thus the precaution.

The other thing I can also tell you is we NEVER vacuum a contaminated space unless we are using a special HEPA filter equipped vacuum. The reason being that if the filter cannot trap 100% of the dust, it is only blowing it out into the environment where you will breath it in instead of sitting on the floor where it is actually safer. There is a classical documented case where someone in a dental office vacuum up mercury and was instantly poisoned. Obviously that was an extreme case but it illustrates what should and should not be done.

 

[jlow]

Unless you are inhaling large amounts of "lead dust" on a daily basis, you have nothing whatsoever to worry about. You ingest more lead from your drinking water, and many types of fish, than you'll ever inhale from vibrating or tumbling your brass.

This is really a personal thing, like gun safety and hearing protection. Completely dependent on your exposure and technique. In the end, it's your body, your life, and you have the right to determine what you are comfortable with. Only sharing my own experience.

 

[amlevin]

Unless you are inhaling large amounts of "lead dust" on a daily basis, you have nothing whatsoever to worry about. You ingest more lead from your drinking water, and many types of fish, than you'll ever inhale from vibrating or tumbling your brass.

This is really a personal thing, like gun safety and hearing protection. Completely dependent on your exposure and technique. In the end, it's your body, your life, and you have the right to determine what you are comfortable with. Only sharing my own experience.

The only problem with your in depth explaination of how YOU, in a laboratory environment filled with "carcinogens and toxins" deal with the issue is that those who are merely cleaning rifle/pistol cases don't have the same environment.

This leads to all kinds of unfounded fears and people then stay away from perfectly safe practices.

Serial misinformation does nobody any good. Unless you are talking apples to apples all one accomplishes is to create fear.

Wash your hands, don't eat while loading (or shooting) and if there IS any lead floating around you won't ingest it.

Now if you work in a battery factory, lead smelting operation, or a laboratory filled with all kinds of "nasty", then all the caution you outlined is warranted. Heck, even in California there are no legislated "edicts" regarding the "tumbling" of cartridge cases.

 

[jlow]

Unless you are inhaling large amounts of "lead dust" on a daily basis, you have nothing whatsoever to worry about. You ingest more lead from your drinking water, and many types of fish, than you'll ever inhale from vibrating or tumbling your brass.

This is really a personal thing, like gun safety and hearing protection. Completely dependent on your exposure and technique. In the end, it's your body, your life, and you have the right to determine what you are comfortable with. Only sharing my own experience.

The only problem with your in depth explaination of how YOU, in a laboratory environment filled with "carcinogens and toxins" deal with the issue is that those who are merely cleaning rifle/pistol cases don't have the same environment.

This leads to all kinds of unfounded fears and people then stay away from perfectly safe practices.

Serial misinformation does nobody any good. Unless you are talking apples to apples all one accomplishes is to create fear.

Wash your hands, don't eat while loading (or shooting) and if there IS any lead floating around you won't ingest it.

Now if you work in a battery factory, lead smelting operation, or a laboratory filled with all kinds of "nasty", then all the caution you outlined is warranted. Heck, even in California there are no legislated "edicts" regarding the "tumbling" of cartridge cases.

Before you dismiss things out of hand, perhaps if you should take a little time to educate yourself about lead toxicity and inhalation toxicity. Words of caution should not always be taken as a liberal plot. We are not talking about something stupid like banning lead bullets. However, the danger of breathing in fine lead particles is real and the fact that its symptoms does not manifest itself for many years makes it easy to disregard.

I am in no way trying to scare people away. If you read my first post on this you will see I wrote “Less of a problem for old farts like us but if you have children who in general is particularly sensitive to lead poising, you may want to take notice.” The reality is most of what we do is indeed relatively safe but of course this depends on who is being exposed, the degree and duration of exposure and this is different for all of us.

As reloaders, we all are well versed with taking chances and we all have a right to take chances with our own health and this is no different. However, what we don’t have a right to is to shout down words of caution if the danger can pertains to our children (who are much more sensitive to lead poisiong) especially if you have no knowledge on the subject matter.

AND BTW, washing your hands and not eating while you reload are all good advice but it will do nothing to prevent you from breathing the stuff into your lungs...

 

[Mr Underbridge]

I get sick of the corn cob dust and the related particles generated from dry tumbling, I have a huge HEPA filter going next to the tumbler and it still bothers me.
Its a personal choice, makes me sick and doesnt bother my wife at all, depends on the person I guess.

 

[jlow]

In your specific case, you may be allergic to corn cob which is a different matter, but the HEPA filter is a good idea.

 

[Pres100]

its amazing how something as simple as a discussion on cleaning methods turns into a pissing match.

Back on topic...
In my experience with SS tumbling I use extra pins, tumble for only approximately 45-60 min. After all other prep is done, I tuble an additional 30-40 min in clean corn cob media with HBN mixed in and there is no seating tension issues or special handling of individual cases.

 

[jlow]

Depending upon the grade of stainless steel used during the manufacture of stainless pins, those pins can be just as toxic as lead. Stainless steel contains both nickel and chromium, and both are toxic. If you live near a highway or agricultural land, you are subjected to lead on a daily basis. I think we worry too much!

That may indeed be true but the huge difference between using corn cob/nut shell and stainless steel media is the dust. With the corn cob/nut shell media, the more you tumble, the more fine dust you generate and the lead is in that dust that gets into the air where you can breathe it in.

With stainless steel media, the fine dust is suspended in the water and so cannot get into the air and goes down the drain.

 

[jlow]

Depending upon the grade of stainless steel used during the manufacture of stainless pins, those pins can be just as toxic as lead. Stainless steel contains both nickel and chromium, and both are toxic. If you live near a highway or agricultural land, you are subjected to lead on a daily basis. I think we worry too much!

That may indeed be true but the huge difference between using corn cob/nut shell and stainless steel media is the dust. With the corn cob/nut shell media, the more you tumble, the more fine dust you generate and the lead is in that dust that gets into the air where you can breathe it in.

With stainless steel media, the fine dust is suspended in the water and so cannot get into the air and goes down the drain.

And dumping it down the drain makes it safe? Where does the water go after dumping it in the drain? There is a minuscule amount of lead remaining in the brass. Most of that very small amount of lead from the primer ends up in the blaze going through the barrel. Once leaving the barrel, it becomes "airborne contamination". Should we worry about that also? Once it leaves the barrel, you are subjecting everyone near you to "airborne lead contamination". Don't worry so much. You'll live longer!

Dumping it down the drain makes it safe for you and your family. The idea is a small contaminant in a large pool of water gets diluted to make it safe bringing it back to background levels. Of course, if you are indeed worried about putting lead into the environment, putting it in the corn cob media that you send it to the landfill is not any safer? If you are really worried about this, don't shoot.

In terms of lead being air born and whether we should worry about it. Again, this is up to you, but if you ever shoot in an indoor gun range, you will find that they are required by law to have a large enough air flow containing the air born lead moving away from the shooters. That is the exact reason they are required to have that expensive setup.

 

[jlow]

Depending upon the grade of stainless steel used during the manufacture of stainless pins, those pins can be just as toxic as lead. Stainless steel contains both nickel and chromium, and both are toxic. If you live near a highway or agricultural land, you are subjected to lead on a daily basis. I think we worry too much!

That may indeed be true but the huge difference between using corn cob/nut shell and stainless steel media is the dust. With the corn cob/nut shell media, the more you tumble, the more fine dust you generate and the lead is in that dust that gets into the air where you can breathe it in.

With stainless steel media, the fine dust is suspended in the water and so cannot get into the air and goes down the drain.

And dumping it down the drain makes it safe? Where does the water go after dumping it in the drain? There is a minuscule amount of lead remaining in the brass. Most of that very small amount of lead from the primer ends up in the blaze going through the barrel. Once leaving the barrel, it becomes "airborne contamination". Should we worry about that also? Once it leaves the barrel, you are subjecting everyone near you to "airborne lead contamination". Don't worry so much. You'll live longer!

Dumping it down the drain makes it safe for you and your family. The idea is a small contaminant in a large pool of water gets diluted to make it safe bringing it back to background levels. Of course, if you are indeed worried about putting lead into the environment, putting it in the corn cob media that you send it to the landfill is not any safer?

In terms of lead being air born and whether we should worry about it. Again, this is up to you, but if you ever shoot in an indoor gun range, you will find that they are required by law to have a large enough air flow containing the air born lead moving away from the shooters. That is the exact reason they are required to have that expensive setup.

It certainly doesn't make it safe for me, nor my family. We have our own septic tanks, with a sand mound. The liquid is separated from the solids, and absorbed into the ground. City systems travel to a water treatment plant where the lead ends up, or, into the groundwater. Not all of it is removed during treatment. The average person isn't shooting in an indoor range, and the movement of air away from the shooter does nothing more than render it airborne. The simple solution to mitigate exposure would be to wear a half face respirator with the correct filters in place. I've had to do just that on hundreds of occasions, and am certainly not going down that road when shooting, nor when cleaning brass. Do you push a brush through your barrels? Where is that lead going? How much lead do you think a primer contains? The amount is so small that i'll never worry about it.

Lead is naturally in our environment and not only in guns and ammo. This is why dilution is generally considered a safe way to get rid of small amounts of toxic material. Everything we do generates waste and toxins and there is no way to avoid this other than not to live. What is important is knowing what you are facing, knowing the safest way to avoid the bad stuff, and knowing how best to get rid of it. A small amount of concentrated lead in powder form is a dangerous form to be exposed to. Putting it into a liquid and diluting it with a huge amount of ground water so that it goes to minuscule ground lead level concentration is the best we can do to avoid problems.

It’s not the amount of lead but the form it is in. A large piece of lead sitting in my reloading room is not going to do anything to me, but lead which is carried in small particles like the tumbling media can make it into the deepest part of your lung where it can get trapped there forever. What is important is size. Something smaller than 2 micron can get all the way into your lungs whereas larger gets deposited in other areas such as your nose where mucus removes it. Stuff that gets all the way deep into your lungs will stay and accumulate and you will continue to absorb it which is where cumulative toxicity comes into play. This is why asbestos is so dangerous. Big chunks of asbestos is not dangerous but the fine strand can again get deep into your lungs and gets trapped there can cause cancer over time.

Yes, shooting in an outdoor range does make it much safer since the large open air volume dilutes the lead dust. This is exactly the rationale why diluting in ground water makes sense.

Wearing a respirator in your home when you tumble will indeed reduces lead aerosol exposure but all that dust stays in your house and wind and a vacuum can stir it up again for inhalation exposure.

As for that brush down the barrel. I never push the brush down dry, always with a cleaner which is a liquid and that helps to keep (most but never all of it) out of the air.

 

[fguffey]

I use a hydro bullet seater and noticed that the pressure spikes when I just cleaned my brass

A spike? A pressure spike? Suddenly, all at once and without warning? If I used the seating tool with the pressure gage I would expect a consistent pressure reading. I do not know if the spike comes when the bullet starts to seat or after the bullet starts into the neck.

When does the spoke appear, then there the question. How much pressure is required to seat the bullet and what is the difference in pressure between the required pressure and the spike?

When seating bullets nothing beats a good alignment between the neck of the case and bullet.

F. Guffey