SS Pin Wet Tumble users, How do you deal with pinging?
- Thread starter diego-ted
- Start date
diego-ted said:
Are you referring to "pinging" around the rim of the mouth rather than the neck? If so, I see this as a non-issue. Pings are not caused by the SS pins but rather by the brasses clashing with one another while tumbling. If you buy brand new brass and look closely at the rim of the mouth you'll see similar markings since brand new brasses are tumbled prior to sale.
You mention neck tension - a couple of comments:
1. I wet tumble before I FL size. After tumbling, I will FL size which includes neck sizing in the sizing die. Therefore, there are no tension issues as the neck is brought into spec with your sizing die after tumbling,
2. After tumbling and then FL sizing, I will trim as needed, chamfer and debur. So, even if there are any residual "pings" on the rim of the mouth, they are completely removed by trimming, chamfering and deburring.
Therefore, for these reasons, in my view, "pinging" on the rim of the case mouth, as stated earlier, is a non-issue.
Bayou
I wet tumble all of my .223, no problems from the tumbling other than inside necks get too clean. You will need to lube the inside of necks.
Doesn't seem to affect my load accuracy or consistency any.
I wet-tumble de-primed cases before sizing, then sometimes run them again - without the SS pins this time - if I have a large quantity to remove sizing lube (prefer the RCBS II liquid stuff) from. This is after they've been trimmed to length & de-burred / chamfered.
Neck mouths coming out aren't as pristine as when they go into the tumbler of course but as they're really only getting processed for maybe 5 - 10 minutes in weak detergent + LemiShine there's got to be some case-to-case contact going on.... I think what evidence I see of that on neck mouths is strictly cosmetic & irrelevant for any effect it may have on neck tension.
FWIW I load to minimum tension, on the order of 0.0015" at most. SD's consistently < 10 or better when I bother to test over a chrono.
I wet-tumble de-primed cases before sizing, then sometimes run them again - without the SS pins this time - if I have a large quantity to remove sizing lube (prefer the RCBS II liquid stuff) from. This is after they've been trimmed to length & de-burred / chamfered.
Neck mouths coming out aren't as pristine as when they go into the tumbler of course but as they're really only getting processed for maybe 5 - 10 minutes in weak detergent + LemiShine there's got to be some case-to-case contact going on.... I think what evidence I see of that on neck mouths is strictly cosmetic & irrelevant for any effect it may have on neck tension.
FWIW I load to minimum tension, on the order of 0.0015" at most. SD's consistently < 10 or better when I bother to test over a chrono.
sparky123321
Silver $$ Contributor
I use a commercial low speed tumbler with a "ton" of pins(15+lb), so I never have any issues with the case mouths being damaged.
I'm glad others have figured out it's not the pins damaging the case mouths. I've been saying this for a couple years now and many didn't believe me. The pins don't have enough mass to do the damage people are seeing. It's the cases falling into one another that causes the damage. Using enough pins and water and a "low speed" tumbler makes this a non-issue. If your tumbler can't handle the weight of additional pins, at least make sure you're using enough water. The water will help to slow down the impacts.
I'm glad others have figured out it's not the pins damaging the case mouths. I've been saying this for a couple years now and many didn't believe me. The pins don't have enough mass to do the damage people are seeing. It's the cases falling into one another that causes the damage. Using enough pins and water and a "low speed" tumbler makes this a non-issue. If your tumbler can't handle the weight of additional pins, at least make sure you're using enough water. The water will help to slow down the impacts.
diego-ted said:
Ted, you beat me to it! I was going to reply "Increase the Octane or retard the timing"! ;D
Neck mouth peening is indeed an issue – it will affect you neck tension consistency. To understand just imagine a neck with inconsistent thickness right at the mouth where it matters the most…
To avoid peening, you can reduce the number of pieces of brass you tumble at a time, reduce tumbling time, and/or increase the amount of pins from 5 lb to 10 lb. This last step will clean your brass faster and so you can shorten your cleaning time and the pins will serve as a cushion to reduce the brass to brass impact.
All of the above is well known and discussed before.
To avoid peening, you can reduce the number of pieces of brass you tumble at a time, reduce tumbling time, and/or increase the amount of pins from 5 lb to 10 lb. This last step will clean your brass faster and so you can shorten your cleaning time and the pins will serve as a cushion to reduce the brass to brass impact.
All of the above is well known and discussed before.
Here is my advice, DO NOT SS clean brass you care about, range brass, blasting ammo brass, SS media clean it, brass that is going to be used for utmost accuracy(pistol/rifle) needs that Carbon for consistent bullet release.
Listen to this man.
I was getting the little ridge around the neck mouth, but I was erroneously attributing it to my neck expanding mandrel, and it was affecting my accuracy. jlow was kind enough to illuminate me. I have since reduced the tumbling time to 1 hour and doubled the amount of pins to 10 lbs., as he suggested, and the problem has disappeared. And my brass is still amazingly clean.
This statement makes no sense to me. If carbon helps bullet release, why not leave it in the barrel too? Why bother cleaning the rifle at all? Leave all of that great carbon in the barrel for your next match.
The reason we seek to remove carbon from our rifles is because carbon it is very hard, with a lot of pressure it becomes diamonds, or as Rice University researchers discovered they turn into bucky (Buckminster fullerenes) balls. As that carbon hardens in your barrel it will become an obstruction. Carbon in your brass will have deleterious affects. That's why I use SS pins to remove it from my brass.
Kindest regards,
Joe
orkan
Site $$ Sponsor
I've done two things to stop this, aside from following the advice above to add more media and run a heavy duty tumbler. That's good advice.
In addition, I use a giraud trimmer with 50bmg cutters, which provides a more rounded case mouth rather than a sharp edge. Very helpful.
Secondly, I be sure to perform my trim process after tumbling. This thousandth or so of material I'll remove between firings will usually clean up any remaining peening.
In addition, I use a giraud trimmer with 50bmg cutters, which provides a more rounded case mouth rather than a sharp edge. Very helpful.
Secondly, I be sure to perform my trim process after tumbling. This thousandth or so of material I'll remove between firings will usually clean up any remaining peening.
Joe R the reason you want some carbon in the neck is it prevents the bullet from sticking to the case neck. It is like it gets welded to the case and apparently it causes inconsistent tension and that directly affects accuracy.
That is why lubrication is needed on new brass, ultrasonic, and SS cleaned brass is recommended. SS cleaned brass does not get it all but enough is removed if you run your cleaner long enough. You can also put a dry lube on your bullets.
That is why lubrication is needed on new brass, ultrasonic, and SS cleaned brass is recommended. SS cleaned brass does not get it all but enough is removed if you run your cleaner long enough. You can also put a dry lube on your bullets.
I have heard others make this ridiculous claim before, and I have never seen any evidence of it, and I have shot hundreds of rounds since I began using SS pins a couple of months ago. Just last Sunday, I won the 300 yard F-TR match at Bayou Rifle in my class (unclassified, and only my second match ever) with brass cleaned with SS pins.
A welder does welding. A copper bullet no more welds itself to a brass case than a key to a lock. I have had to take ammo apart because a batch of different loads got mixed up, and I can assure you the bullets separate themselves from the case quite easily.
If lubrication is needed to ensure more consistent release, then a lubricant should be used. Carbon is not a lubricant or non-binding agent.
Somewhere out on the internet there is an article that I read and I don't recall where or written by who, I believe is titled something like "Carbon is our enemy" and it discusses all the problems associated with carbon, firearms and accuracy.
Never heard of this. Can someone please illuminate me. I need evidence not an opinion.
bigedp51
diego-ted said:
Every time you wet tumble your cases its like entering a car in a demolition derby with the cases crashing into each other. And the secret to winning the cartridge case demolition derby is reduce the amount of times the cases crash into each other. Below is one of the first batches of .223/5.56 cases I tumbled too long. Now get a magnifying glass and look at new unfired Remchester cases and they will look even worse.
As you can see below if the mouth of the case crashes into another case the front of the case gets dinged.
With all the good comments in this posting you should now know what the hail you are doing wrong.
You either reduce your tumble time or add more buffering media, meaning more pins to reduce the force of the crash to just a bump.
If peening is an issue then increase the amount of pins or reduce the number of cases you process at one time. More media means more case separation and cushioning.
I just prefer to de-prime, tumble then F/L size and trim. To clean the lube off a couple cycles in my ultrasonic cleaner using dishwash detergent and water only does the job. Just sloshing for a few minutes in some Dawn and water, using a colander then rinsing seems to do fine with the lube I use.
I just prefer to de-prime, tumble then F/L size and trim. To clean the lube off a couple cycles in my ultrasonic cleaner using dishwash detergent and water only does the job. Just sloshing for a few minutes in some Dawn and water, using a colander then rinsing seems to do fine with the lube I use.
bigedp51
Joe R said:
Joe R
Think of galvanized fencing that prevents rust, the zinc has more free electrons and they transfer to the steel replating its surface and prevents rusting. Cartridge case brass contains 30% zinc and the electrons can transfer to the bullets copper and "bond" the bullet to the cartridge case. If the inside of the neck has a carbon coating the bullet and case are not in direct physical contact (insulated) and prevents electron flow, moisture on bare metal (Humidity) accelerates this process. The annealing process causes the case neck to oxidize and provides a barrier between the bullet and case. Wet tumbling scrubs the cartridge clean down to bare metal and any moisture starts the the transfer of electrons.
Galvanic corrosion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion
Corrosion of an iron nail wrapped in bright copper wire, showing cathodic protection of copper; a ferroxyl indicator solution shows colored chemical indications of two types of ions diffusing through a moist agar medium.
Another way to look at is when you first met your wife your feelings were electric and you bonded together. Then after much time has passed and much later in the marriage you both finally reach mutual sexual compatibility.........................and you both get headaches. (no more electron flow)
Joe R said:
I can't give you imperical evidence unless you come to my reloading room. I can tell you as someone who shoots an average of 2500 rounds per year that this gentleman is right. Of course, it's not welding. There is no "cold weld" activity between brass and copper. There is some kind of reaction that causes a slight (maybe frictional) bonding between the two sometimes. It is not constant, which makes it worse for competitors. I have tested a few times and it does make a difference. Most competitors that I shoot with don't tumble their brass at all. Certainly not in a spinning barrel full of stainless steel. Im sure there are exceptions. If you are tumbling with SS and you are consistantly producing .5 -.75 inch groups at 300 yards please accept my humblest apologies. If you aren't and you must spin your brass in a circle to make them shiney, use corn cob and limit it to 10 minutes. This will remove the carbon "balls" and leave enough for seating and release lubricity. I won't give you my experiences but I can tell you the the National Midrange F-Class Champion, David Decareaux does exactly what I just described. I know. I taught him how. LOL. Where ya at Dec?
Sorry, couldn't resist the smack opportunity.
Joe R
Think of galvanized fencing that prevents rust, the zinc has more free electrons and they transfer to the steel replating its surface and prevents rusting. Cartridge case brass contains 30% zinc and the electrons can transfer to the bullets copper and "bond" the bullet to the cartridge case. If the inside of the neck has a carbon coating the bullet and case are not in direct physical contact (insulated) and prevents electron flow, moisture on bare metal (Humidity) accelerates this process. The annealing process causes the case neck to oxidize and provides a barrier between the bullet and case. Wet tumbling scrubs the cartridge clean down to bare metal and any moisture starts the the transfer of electrons.
Galvanic corrosion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion
Corrosion of an iron nail wrapped in bright copper wire, showing cathodic protection of copper; a ferroxyl indicator solution shows colored chemical indications of two types of ions diffusing through a moist agar medium.
Another way to look at is when you first met your wife your feelings were electric and you bonded together. Then after much time has passed and much later in the marriage you both finally reach mutual sexual compatibility.........................and you both get headaches. (no more electron flow)
bigedp51,
I assume that this process takes some time to develop and the critical factor is moisture. I keep my ammo dry that would explain why I haven't seen any evidence of it yet. And all my reloads don't sit around but a couple of days at most. Still there is that, and then the question is: how do ammo manufacturer's who only use virgin brass deal with this problem?
Please educate me, I am an eager student?
Kindest regards,
Joe
Joe R said:Joe R
Think of galvanized fencing that prevents rust, the zinc has more free electrons and they transfer to the steel replating its surface and prevents rusting. Cartridge case brass contains 30% zinc and the electrons can transfer to the bullets copper and "bond" the bullet to the cartridge case. If the inside of the neck has a carbon coating the bullet and case are not in direct physical contact (insulated) and prevents electron flow, moisture on bare metal (Humidity) accelerates this process. The annealing process causes the case neck to oxidize and provides a barrier between the bullet and case. Wet tumbling scrubs the cartridge clean down to bare metal and any moisture starts the the transfer of electrons.
Galvanic corrosion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion
Corrosion of an iron nail wrapped in bright copper wire, showing cathodic protection of copper; a ferroxyl indicator solution shows colored chemical indications of two types of ions diffusing through a moist agar medium.
Another way to look at is when you first met your wife your feelings were electric and you bonded together. Then after much time has passed and much later in the marriage you both finally reach mutual sexual compatibility.........................and you both get headaches. (no more electron flow)
bigedp51,
I assume that this process takes some time to develop and the critical factor is moisture. I keep my ammo dry that would explain why I haven't seen any evidence of it yet. And all my reloads don't sit around but a couple of days at most. Still there is that, and then the question is: how do ammo manufacturer's who only use virgin brass deal with this problem?
Please educate me, I am an eager student?
Kindest regards,
Joe
They may not have to deal with it Joe. Their accuracy standards aren't as high. I'm sure that that rounds you loaded for your match were as good and most probably better than anything you could buy. Good job with the match BTW.
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