Squeezing the most accuracy out of my gas gun loads

[SWThomas]

Ok. Like I said, the expander ball is removable and disposable.

However, that stated, a bushing die can be used with an expander ball to minimize the work done on the mouth. By design, a regular die will reduce the mouth more than needed by some brass, relying on the expander ball to bring it back to a usable size.

Using a bushing die without the expander ball minimizes the work on the mouth and provides fine control of the neck tension.

Yeah I caught that.

My point is why would they market it like this? I understnd that YOU get rid of the ball, but it seems pointless for someone else to use smaller bushings with the ball still in place. I sent Redding an email asking them. I'll post a reply when I get it.

 

[stool]

i see comments on brass damage in the ar10's/308 ar platform.
several things can be done.
once you find a load you like...trim the ejector spring 1 turn at a time and you can really control the brass ejection.
a bolt disassemble tool can be made from about 3/8" of a case base and a vise or a c clamp....buy extra springs first...cause when they go boingggggg, they are history.
with this is done you might try an adjustable gas block.....might have to re do the ejector spring....a carrier weight..

looking at this i think i would do carrier weight, gas block and then spring....i have only done spring and it was good for me.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Ok. Like I said, the expander ball is removable and disposable.

However, that stated, a bushing die can be used with an expander ball to minimize the work done on the mouth. By design, a regular die will reduce the mouth more than needed by some brass, relying on the expander ball to bring it back to a usable size.

Using a bushing die without the expander ball minimizes the work on the mouth and provides fine control of the neck tension.

Yeah I caught that.

My point is why would they market it like this? I understnd that YOU get rid of the ball, but it seems pointless for someone else to use smaller bushings with the ball still in place. I sent Redding an email asking them. I'll post a reply when I get it.

I would suspect their answer will be they would rather supply it for people who think they need it rather than have to send it to them separately.

Better to have and not need than to need and not have. Or something to that effect.

 

[jonbearman]

It may have been said but what I do for my ar-10 and other rifles in general is size with a rockchuker using the appropriate die to do what is necessary to restore the neck to where I want it including a small base after repeated firings and a neck die with bushings or a lee collett dies.If it is a custom chamber then the bushing is the only way to go in my opinion.The problem with factory chambers is they are loose for a reason(cycling and safety) and the fired size is usually big enough that using a bushing die will have to be done in stages to get to the desired neck tension.One thing is what is your fired neck size and what is the neck thickness to see just how far you need to size for your neck tension needs?

 

[SWThomas]

What do you guys think about doing this...

Since I already have the Dillon die, I can run the brass through it first (set to not change the shoulder) just to where it'll size the brass, neck, and iron out any dings in the case mouth with the expander ball.

Then run it through the Redding die, with ball removed, to get the neck tension and shoulder bump set.

 

[jlow]

A couple of things to keep in mind when reloading for an AR-10. One is you do not need a huge amount of neck tension if you are going to single load. More neck tension usually means that you will have less consistent neck tension which also means your MV will not be as consistent as you want for long distance shooting.

Taking the expander ball out is good advice but keep in mind that if you are going to use a Redding Type S FL sizer with a bushing but without a ball, you are going to have to control the internal diameter of your case neck somehow. What I mean here is normally a FL sizing die will reduce the neck and the ball when it comes out pushes it back out to get you the correct neck internal diameter and neck tension. As the others have already said, normal FL sizing die tends to over undersize the neck and then blows it back out with the ball. The advantage of the Redding Type S dies with the bushing is that it allows you to size it down exactly what you want it to be – BUT remember that this assumes that the neck dimensions are perfect. This is a big potential problem because even with Lapua brass, there is always a slight difference in neck thickness and concentricity (i.e. one side thicker than the other). If you use a bushing on an imperfect neck, all the imperfections will be pushed in and since you don’t have a ball to make it right, you are going to have a case that measures perfectly on the outside but imperfect where you seat your bullet i.e. internal dimensions. That will cause neck tension and concentricity problems. The way people deal with this is to use neck turned brass which of course is almost perfect and don’t have the above problems, but brass straight from the factory, yes even Lapua is trouble with this method.

A different method is to size the body and shoulder with a FL sizer and then size the neck with a Lee Collet die which size the neck from inside out much like a ball except it is not pulled through but has a steel core that fingers push the neck in. Brass sized this way will have very consistent internal dimensions, which is where it is important and if you have less than perfect brass, the imperfections will be pushed to the outside where it has no effect in a factory gas gun chamber.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

What do you guys think about doing this...

Since I already have the Dillon die, I can run the brass through it first (set to not change the shoulder) just to where it'll size the brass, neck, and iron out any dings in the case mouth with the expander ball.

Then run it through the Redding die, with ball removed, to get the neck tension and shoulder bump set.

If you want to do that, just push the expander ball inside the neck and then take pull it out; you do not even have to go through the entire neck, just round out the mouth.

 

[stool]

no..unless you drill out the neck of the dillon die...take it to a machine shop it is hard.
and you would size the shoulder and case, just not the neck.
then neck size with the redding...

What do you guys think about doing this...

Since I already have the Dillon die, I can run the brass through it first (set to not change the shoulder) just to where it'll size the brass, neck, and iron out any dings in the case mouth with the expander ball.

Then run it through the Redding die, with ball removed, to get the neck tension and shoulder bump set.

 

[SWThomas]

A different method is to size the body and shoulder with a FL sizer and then size the neck with a Lee Collet die which size the neck from inside out much like a ball except it is not pulled through but has a steel core that fingers push the neck in. Brass sized this way will have very consistent internal dimensions, which is where it is important and if you have less than perfect brass, the imperfections will be pushed to the outside where it has no effect in a factory gas gun chamber.

I like that idea. But is the collet die adjustable? Would I be able to go with tighter neck tension like I'm trying to do with the Redding bushing die?

 

[jlow]

A different method is to size the body and shoulder with a FL sizer and then size the neck with a Lee Collet die which size the neck from inside out much like a ball except it is not pulled through but has a steel core that fingers push the neck in. Brass sized this way will have very consistent internal dimensions, which is where it is important and if you have less than perfect brass, the imperfections will be pushed to the outside where it has no effect in a factory gas gun chamber.

I like that idea. But is the collet die adjustable? Would I be able to go with tighter neck tension like I'm trying to do with the Redding bushing die?

Yes you can but instead of buying a different size bushing, you will need to go to the custom servies of Lee Precision and have them make you a smaller mandrel. Like I said, if you are going for high precision long distance, you are not going to be loading mag length stuff and so why go higher neck tension as that will also decrease your chance of consistent neck tension...

 

[stool]

i only use .002 neck reduction in my 175 gr load..and it is from the mag. checked for movement..none.

 

[SWThomas]

A different method is to size the body and shoulder with a FL sizer and then size the neck with a Lee Collet die which size the neck from inside out much like a ball except it is not pulled through but has a steel core that fingers push the neck in. Brass sized this way will have very consistent internal dimensions, which is where it is important and if you have less than perfect brass, the imperfections will be pushed to the outside where it has no effect in a factory gas gun chamber.

I like that idea. But is the collet die adjustable? Would I be able to go with tighter neck tension like I'm trying to do with the Redding bushing die?

Yes you can but instead of buying a different size bushing, you will need to go to the custom servies of Lee Precision and have them make you a smaller mandrel. Like I said, if you are going for high precision long distance, you are not going to be loading mag length stuff and so why go higher neck tension as that will also decrease your chance of consistent neck tension...

I'm not really looking for long distance with this rifle. Maybe 500 yards some day. I might load some long rounds some day just to see what the rifle will do, but for now it's all about optimizing mag length loads.

 

[SWThomas]

i only use .002 neck reduction in my 175 gr load..and it is from the mag. checked for movement..none.

Would you mind listing your loading equipment and any special procedures you perform? Are the 175s SMKs? Do you crimp?

 

[stool]

it is all above..
brass is weight sorted , full prep.trim to length, primer pockets uniformed, flash holes deburred ( on non lapua brass) neck has vld reamer touch on the inside. powder is to plus or minus 0.03gr,
bullets are weight and bearing length sorted.
i shoot moly in most my rifles.
.3moa something is my smallest with single loaded throat length ammo...like i said average is right at 0.5 moa for mag length ammo,
no crimp and no movement

i only use .002 neck reduction in my 175 gr load..and it is from the mag. checked for movement..none.

Would you mind listing your loading equipment and any special procedures you perform? Are the 175s SMKs? Do you crimp?

 

[SWThomas]

it is all above..
brass is weight sorted , full prep.trim to length, primer pockets uniformed, flash holes deburred ( on non lapua brass) neck has vld reamer touch on the inside. powder is to plus or minus 0.03gr,
bullets are weight and bearing length sorted.
i shoot moly in most my rifles.
.3moa something is my smallest with single loaded throat length ammo...like i said average is right at 0.5 moa for mag length ammo,
no crimp and no movement

i only use .002 neck reduction in my 175 gr load..and it is from the mag. checked for movement..none.

Would you mind listing your loading equipment and any special procedures you perform? Are the 175s SMKs? Do you crimp?

Thanks! Sounds like everything I'm doing. Except I'm using SMKs and A-Max bullets. I just picked up a box of Barnes Match Burners in 175g to see how they'll shoot.

 

[SWThomas]

Reply from Redding:


Thank you for your interest in Redding Reloading Equipment. The original intent of Redding's Bushing Dies was to not overwork the case neck. Standard dies have to work with the thinnest SAAMI Spec brass, and SAAMI allows for as much as .004-.005" variation in case wall neck thickness. So if your brass was on the thicker side and you are using a standard sizing die you would be sizing the neck down .008-.010" below what you need and then opening the neck back up for about .0015" neck tension.

The idea behind the bushing dies was to reduce how much the neck was being reduced before pulling the sizing button back thru the case neck. By not working the case neck you will get longer case life. This is important if you are using the higher end brass or have invested time turning case necks. With a semi-auto gas gun your cases are beat up long before the case neck start to crack from resizing.

Some reloaders chose to use the dies without the sizing button and use the bushing to control neck tension. Redding Type S bushing dies are built with the sizing button installed and we include a undersized decapping pin retainer in the die box. You simply remove the sizing button and replace it with the undersized decapping pin retainer, then by using a smaller bushing you will have more neck tension.

I do not recommend using a bushing die for an semi-auto. A bushing die will not size the full length of the case neck and this unsized portion could cause problems with feeding. With that said there are many reloaders and some reloading manuals and the tech departments promoting the use of bushings dies for control neck tension.

Redding's recommendation is to use a standard full length die and a taper crimp die as in our National Match Die Set. The National match die set include a standard full length sizing die, Competition Seating Die and Taper Crimp die. If everything is okay with the brass, a standard resizing die will give you plenty of neck tension. However with an AR or any semi-autos, when you pick up your brass at the range you can not be sure you are picking up only yours. The Taper Crimp die gives you a little more assurance of additional neck tension by squeezing the case neck onto the bullet. The Taper Crimp does not need a cannelure cut into the bullet for a crimp.

When I use a bushing die I prefer to use it with a sizing button. I get a nice round id on the case neck to seat the bullet, and I can feel from one case to the next if there is any difference in neck tension. If I feel a difference, I will taker a closer look at the case to see why.

I hope this helps

Chris Fox
Redding Reloading Tech &
Certified NRA Reloading Instructor


Redding Reloading Equipment
1089 Starr Road
Cortland, NY 13045
(607) 753-3331

cscf@redding-reloading.com

 

[stool]

they are a business and have to stay on the conservative side of things.

an ar is not an garand, nor an m14.
i have look at and done it this way for some time with no issues.
your mileage may vary.

he is correct in that the bushing die will NOT size the full length of the neck.

 

[jlow]

When I use a bushing die I prefer to use it with a sizing button. I get a nice round id on the case neck to seat the bullet, and I can feel from one case to the next if there is any difference in neck tension. If I feel a difference, I will taker a closer look at the case to see why.

Remember what I said about the need to use the sizing button when using the bushing die.... He does not talk about neck turn brass, but that is the only time you could go without.

 

[stool]

and the most common cause of runout is necks being pulled out of alignment....

having a round hole does no good if it is pointed in the wrong direction.

When I use a bushing die I prefer to use it with a sizing button. I get a nice round id on the case neck to seat the bullet, and I can feel from one case to the next if there is any difference in neck tension. If I feel a difference, I will taker a closer look at the case to see why.

Remember what I said about the need to use the sizing button when using the bushing die.... He does not talk about neck turn brass, but that is the only time you could go without.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

This morning, I posted a 2500 word essay that covered various aspects discussed here and explained the meaning of life, the universe and everything. Unfortunately the database got wiped out and my prose disappeared.

The bottom line was that I only load match ammo with my bushing dies because I need long case life and consistency from load to load. For my non-match ammo, I use regular dies and do not really worry about case life as I am more likely to lose the cases.