Splits on shoulder..?

[Uncle Ed]

Where are you getting this information??? The small base dies I have used {RCBS} as well as any others that I know of reduce the base diameter by .001" and they are not made to reduce the headspace length by anything. Like any full length resize die you can set them up to reduce headspace length, but you probably wont get .003" shorter than a "standard" die out of them. Unless of course you shorten the shell holder or cut off the bottom of the die.

There are those that say brass cases do not harden with age and that it can only harden by being worked. The guys that made this claim also claimed to be "metallurgist". There was a long thread on here a few years back about this. But I have seen way too many old cases that did nothing but sit around and they certainly had very hard necks. Air harden, work harden or time harden....the end result was the same, either the necks split just from sitting with a bullet in them or I could hear and feel a noticeable "chirp" when sizing over the neck expander. Proper annealing put the cases back in service. The other thing to really watch out for with older brass cases is corrosive primers. I think the magic year was 1944. Everything from then on was non-corrosive.

Trust me I know how far my dies push the shoulder back and small base dies reduce the case to minimum SAAMI dimensions. And again this is why small base dies are noted for case head separations because they bump the shoulder back more than a standard die.

And below my RCBS and Redding small base dies "WILL" push the case shoulder back more than a standard die. And below are not all my 223/5.56 dies, I worked in a sporting goods store and got a discount and had a curiosity about how much dies vary in size.

NOTE, I have a standard Lee 223 full length die that will size the case smaller in diameter and push the shoulder back more than my small base dies.

Bottom line, chambers and dies can and do vary in size, meaning in diameter and shoulder location.

Below a Colt field gauge at 1.4376

Below the same headspace gauge in my adjusted Hornady gauge.

And a fired Lake City case from my AR15, and this case will be resized with a RCBS small base die and a Redding +.004 shell holder for .003 shoulder bump. Meaning if a standard RCBS shell holder is used with press cam over the shoulder would be bumped back .007 or more.

Below Dillion dies are small base dies and they even warn you to adjust the die for proper shoulder bump.

Dillon Carbide Rifle Dies (Individual & Three-Die Sets)
https://www.dillonprecision.com/dillon-carbide-rifle-dies-individual-three-die-sets_8_4_24498.html

"Sizing/Depriming Die
The sizing/depriming die is full-length and sized to minimum tolerances to size cases down to function in both semi and fully automatic firearms. We strongly suggest that a headspace case gauge be used to correctly adjust the size die."

 

[Pwc]

Are the primers crimped? If yes on LC brass, they are not reloads; if no on LC brass, they are reloads. On comml brass it's a crap shoot.

 

[spife7980]

Trust me I know how far my dies push the shoulder back and small base dies reduce the case to minimum SAAMI dimensions. And again this is why small base dies are noted for case head separations because they bump the shoulder back more than a standard die.

And below my RCBS and Redding small base dies "WILL" push the case shoulder back more than a standard die. And below are not all my 223/5.56 dies, I worked in a sporting goods store and got a discount and had a curiosity about how much dies vary in size.

NOTE, I have a standard Lee 223 full length die that will size the case smaller in diameter and push the shoulder back more than my small base dies.

So youre saying that small bases dies will push the shoulders down further... why not just screw it out a bit and save your brass life? You dont have to size to miminum saami spec with them sacrificing half the brass life. Then you cold have good brass and still get the smaller diameter at the base.

 

[dickn52]

Got a pic?
Probably gas port timing off with your powder choice allowing them to stretch that .003 then splitting in the work hardened shoulder

I think it was already loaded by someone else, so load data not available???

 

[Uncle Ed]

So youre saying that small bases dies will push the shoulders down further... why not just screw it out a bit and save your brass life? You dont have to size to miminum saami spec with them sacrificing half the brass life. Then you cold have good brass and still get the smaller diameter at the base.

I do not need to adjust my dies up or down, I'm using Redding competition shell holders that control the amount of shoulder bump. And "YES" a small base die will push the case shoulder back further than a standard die.

If you do not believe me then go out and buy a standard die and a small base die and measure the cases like I did.

These competition shell holder will not push the case as far into the die as a standard shell holder. There are five shell holders in .002 increments from +.002 to +.010.

A normal shell holder should have a deck height of .125 at the "X" below and the competition shell holders go from .127 to .135. The instructions tell you to start with the +.010 (.135) shell holder and work down until the desired should bump is achieved and the case chambers freely.

Before the competition shell holders you would place different thickness feeler gauges between the die and shell holder for the proper bump.

 

[spife7980]

I still dont get why you wouldnt just adjust the die (or swap shell holders, same effect) for proper sizing though. If it sizes down .003 more than the other just make it so that it sizes the same. Then you get brass thats not over bumped along with the smaller base.

Or are you saying that when screwed all the way down as far as functionally possible that the small base is ultimately capable of sizing more? Because if thats the case you could just take a few thous off the bottom of the other normal die for the same effect. But thats got to be disastrous for brass life, no? Sizing it down as far as possible?

 

[Uncle Ed]

spife7980
A small base die when adjusted down to contact the shell holder plus a 1/8 of a turn more with press cam over will push the shoulder back more than a standard die adjusted the same way. Meaning sizing the case to minimum SAAMI dimensions, smaller in diameter and shorter in headspace length.

I adjust all my dies to make hard contact with the shell holder with press cam over using a standard shell shell holder. I then use the Redding competition shell holders for the desired amount of shoulder bump. With this method the die is never touched for the amount of shoulder bump. And the amount of shoulder bump is adjusted by swapping shell holders.

A case fired in a semi-auto should be .003 to .005 smaller in diameter than its fired diameter. This allows the case to spring back from the chamber walls and extract reliably.

I use the +.004 competition shell holder with my 223 small base die, and the +.002 shell holder with the standard 223 die for the same amount of shoulder bump.

Below left to right are a Wilson case gauge, a Dillon gauge and a JP Enterprise gauge. The JP Enterprise gauge is made to minimum SAAMI diameter and why the case does not drop as far down as the other two gauges. I use the JP Enterprise gauge to check case diameter after sizing as a plop test and use a Hornady gauge for headpace.

Bottom line my loaded cartridges must drop in and fall out of the JP Enterprise gauge for my AR15 rifles. I also use this gauge for all the ammo I load for my son, because Dad isn't going to be blamed for ammo that won't chamber or extract reliably.

 

[msinc]

.......small base dies reduce the case to minimum SAAMI dimensions................And again this is why small base dies are noted for case head separations because they bump the shoulder back more than a standard die.

No, that is not what you said...you said "small base dies will reduce the case by .003" sides and shoulder more than a standard die." Now you want to throw in special length adjusting shell holders......come on dude!!! ANY die will reduce a case by the special shell holder amount!!! But you conveniently left the part out about the special shell holders!!!
I have never heard or read where "small base dies are noted for case head separation". Absolute total spoon fed B.S. Case head separation is very dangerous, if SB dies really were "noted" for it then the manufacturers either would stop making/selling them or the manufacturer would take steps to correct the problem. Who could risk THAT LAW SUIT WAITING TO HAPPEN!!!!

 

[spife7980]

Bottom line my loaded cartridges must drop in and fall out of the JP Enterprise gauge for my AR15 rifles. I also use this gauge for all the ammo I load for my son, because Dad isn't going to be blamed for ammo that won't chamber or extract reliably.

You will be blamed for case head separations after only a few firings sizing your brass such as you are.

 

[pirate ammo]

No, that is not what you said...you said "small base dies will reduce the case by .003" sides and shoulder more than a standard die." Now you want to throw in special length adjusting shell holders......come on dude!!! ANY die will reduce a case by the special shell holder amount!!! But you conveniently left the part out about the special shell holders!!!
I have never heard or read where "small base dies are noted for case head separation". Absolute total spoon fed B.S. Case head separation is very dangerous, if SB dies really were "noted" for it then the manufacturers either would stop making/selling them or the manufacturer would take steps to correct the problem. Who could risk THAT LAW SUIT WAITING TO HAPPEN!!!!

BOOM

 

[Uncle Ed]

I guess my two dyslexic typing fingers failed to get my point across, but do not forget the OP stated the problem cases were .003 shorter than factory loaded ammo.

So let me be more precise, in over 47 years of reloading I have never had a case head separation or a kaboom.

But I have run into many people who think they know everything in forums and try their best to be impolight. I also think there are people here who do not have any small base dies or Redding competition shell holders.

Its a shame when you try to help someone and have all these midgets sitting at their computers pretending to be giants.

RCBS FAQ
http://rcbs.com/Help/FAQ-s.aspx

• Q: I see a Small Base Die Set listed for my caliber. Do I need these or should I buy a Full Length Die Set or Neck Die Set? How does each set differ?
• 
  A: The Small Base Die set is intended for use for ammunition to be used in auto, semi-auto, and lever action rifles so that the loaded round chambers and extracts easily. The Small Base Sizer Die sizes the case from the shoulder to the head of the case a couple of thousandths smaller than a Full Length Sizer Die. In certain calibers it also sets the shoulder of the case back a thousandth or two more than the Full Length Sizer Die. The Full Length Die Set or Neck Die Set is not normally recommended for ammo to be used in auto, semi-auto, or lever action rifles. The Full Length Die set is recommended for ammunition used in bolt action rifles, particularly for ammunition to be used for hunting. The Neck Die Set can also be used to produce ammunition for use in bolt action rifles. The Neck Sizer Die sizes only the neck of the case so it will hold the bullet firmly. It does not size the body of the case nor does it set the shoulder back. Neck sized cases will usually chamber for three or more firings, depending on the powder charge and chamber dimensions. However, over a period of time, a slight drag will be noticed when the bolt is locked. At this point, cases will need to be full length sized and the shoulder set back so they will chamber and extract easily.

Redding 223 Remington Small Base Body Die
https://precisionreloading.com/cart.php#!l=RE&i=74111

Designed to full length resize the case body and bump the shoulder without disturbing the case neck. The Small Base Body Dies are for use with firearms with custom chamberings that are tighter than SAAMI Specifications. For precision control of the amount of shoulder bump, Redding Competition Shellholders are recommended. Shellholder sold separately.

 

[spife7980]

I guess my two dyslexic typing fingers failed to get my point across, but do not forget the OP stated the problem cases were .003 shorter than factory loaded ammo.

And so you think that he should go ahead and just to and resize them back that small every time?

Lets remember that hes getting split shoulders with them already.

 

[Uncle Ed]

And so you think that he should go ahead and just to and resize them back that small every time?

Lets remember that hes getting split shoulders with them already.

Go back and reread the OP first posting, he used some cases he inherited that were .003 shorter than factory ammo and had a shoulder that split.

My guess was the cases were resized with a small base die and not adjusted for minimum shoulder bump.

Why don't you give the OP your advice on why the shoulder split and are .003 shorter than factory ammo and help the OP.

Go ahead spife7980 and tell us what you would do with cases fired in another rifle and didn't know how many times they had been fired.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Brass is a expendable item, and once fired Lake City 5.56 cases are dirt cheap.

.223/5.56 - AS-IS - Lake City Only - 200 Pieces $19.00 free shipping (9 1/2 cents each)
https://brassbombers.com/223-556-AS-IS-Lake-City-Only-200-Pieces-5LC-ASP20.htm
These are once fired .223/5.56 Military brass casings being sold AS-IS. No cleaning, processing or loading has been done. These casings have 100% Lake City headstamps.

.223/5.56 - Cleaned, Deprimed & Swaged - LC Only - 200 Pieces $22.00 free shipping
https://brassbombers.com/223-556-Cleaned-Deprimed-Swaged-LC-Only-200-Pieces-5LC-SSP20.htm
Once-Fired .223/5.56 Military brass for reloading. These casings have been cleaned, deprimed, and swaged (Crimp Removed). No other processing or loading has been done. These casings have 100% LC headstamps.

 

[pirate ammo]

remember we are talking late 80's no later than 1990 production,,I know the OP and how he does things,but before he got them,,?????,father had them,,small base,,normal base,,
YOU don't see them YOU don't know,,I'm not a genius , but I say let's pull them and start fresh.

 

[spife7980]

Go back and reread the OP first posting, he used some cases he inherited that were .003 shorter than factory ammo and had a shoulder that split.

My guess was the cases were resized with a small base die and not adjusted for minimum shoulder bump.

Why don't you give the OP your advice on why the shoulder split and are .003 shorter than factory ammo and help the OP.

Go ahead spife7980 and tell us what you would do with cases fired in another rifle and didn't know how many times they had been fired.

I wouldnt do anything with them, I dont shoot cheap old bulk ammo. What he does with them is his choice. Pull them, shoot them in an ar, throw them away, doesnt matter.

What got ambiguous was that after your first sentence it seemed that you were arguing that a small base die couldnt be used to size correctly. And Im not the only person that got that impression.

 

[Uncle Ed]

What got ambiguous was that after your first sentence it seemed that you were arguing that a small base die couldnt be used to size correctly. And Im not the only person that got that impression.

Below my first posting, and there is nothing ambiguous about it and its very clear.

If the shoulder location is .003 shorter than factory loaded ammunition my guess is the cases were resized with a small base die.

I buy bulk once fired processed Lake City 7.62 and 5.56 brass, its cheap and I would toss the cases you have and start fresh.

What I do see are far too many people being critics and not bothering to answer the OP question.

 

[Rsadams]

remember we are talking late 80's no later than 1990 production,,I know the OP and how he does things,but before he got them,,?????,father had them,,small base,,normal base,,
YOU don't see them YOU don't know,,I'm not a genius , but I say let's pull them and start fresh.

Agree , dad reloaded , but didn't load these , I am 99% sure he bought them at a gun show when he was buying alot of AK , SKS and AR15s before the Clinton ban got going... I have enough LC once fired brass I can process and load all of them again and store them for the same reason he bought them... SHTF time..

One pack of primers and 3 lbs of powder and a few days , all good for another 20 years...

Did they even have small base dies in the late 80s or very early 90s..? These cases seem to have .003 more umm , headspace than a factory round using a Hornady headspace comparator... I know headspace is not the correct terminology... Maybe case head to shoulder measurements is correct , not OAL of the case either I didn't even measure anything after finding the extra headspace measurements...

Either way I will just pull them and load them again myself , alot of work but problem solved...