Speer Customer Service: F-

[Brians356]

In all my dealings with reloading component vendors' customer service, I've never had an experience such I just had with Speer Bullets customer service. I relate this for what it's worth, to whom it may concern - no advice sought.

Most vendors either publish or will provide bullet overall length (BOAL). As most of you know, this figure is useful when analyzing and comparing velocity figures published in reloading manuals.

Every reloading manual lists the cartridge overall length (COAL) as tested for each bullet. Changing the COAL (and seating depth) alters the effective case capacity (which affects pressure and velocity), and determines if a particular powder charge will be compressed or not.

If you know the BOAL, you can then deduce from the published as-tested COAL how much of the case's neck is occupied by that bullet, and this can be compared to other data published for different bullets of the same weight, but different BOALs, seated to a different COALs. Bottom line, a bullet's length is a legitimate figure for a serious handloader to know.

You might not guess that the bullet length would be a closely-guarded trade secret. And for most manufacturers, it's not. Nosler displays the BOAL right on their product pages. Sierra and Hornady customer service reps will cheerfully divulge it for the asking. But not Speer.

I was a bit shocked when, upon asking Speer Customer Service (via e-mail) what the BOAL was for a particular bullet, I received this reply: "The OAL of the bullet is proprietary."

What? Really? I pressed the chap who responded with a few follow-up e-mails, and, to make a long story short, was treated as if I was a child playing with matches who had no legitimate use for that information, and was informed that I should just "Load to the tested COAL and check for proper feed and function" and that "2.235” was tested in the 223 Rem."

Which is odd, and not a little telling, because I never even mentioned 223 Rem, or any other cartridge.

Obviously, I shouldn't be worrying my pretty little head about such things as BOAL. And in any event, Speer ain't stupid enough to give away such a vital trade secret to some joker for the mere asking. After all, I could be a spy from one of their evil competitors, trying to reverse-engineer one of Speer's fabulous bullets!

I am a bit disheartened by this experience, since I grew up in Lewiston, know the Speer family, know folks who work at Speer, and always liked and tried to use Speer bullets.

 

[Erik Cortina]

I don't see how the info you seek is relevant. Differences in freebore length, neck tension, and powder lot have a greater effect on pressure than what you are talking about. Even if they told you the BOAL, bearing surface will likely be different than another bullet with same BOAL.

When you try a new bullet, you should do a proper load work up to establish safe parameters for your gun instead of relying on published numbers on a reloading manual.

 

[Brians356]

I didn't start this thread in order to solicit the bullet length, or to discuss the relative value of knowing it. I have my reasons which I may choose to discuss in a separate thread. I promised the chap at Speer I would gladly share my customer service experience where it might be of some value, for what it's worth - perhaps nothing.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Why can't you measure the bullets yourself?

 

[Brians356]

Why can't you measure the bullets yourself?

Erik, I would have thought it was obvious - I don't have the bullet in question. And I don't choose to purchase 100 of them just to measure one. The bullet was used in published load tables which I was comparing to my own results with a different bullet of the same weight.

I repeat: I relate this for what it's worth, to whom it may concern - no advice sought. ... I didn't start this thread in order to solicit the bullet length, ...

 

[AndyTaber]

I can sort of understand their not wanting to give you a specific number. They give you the length to the thousands, and the next thing you know they are receiving hundreds of complaints because the bullets don't all measure to that length.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Most vendors either publish or will provide bullet overall length (BOAL). As most of you know, this figure is useful when analyzing and comparing velocity figures published in reloading manuals.

Uh, no!

Every reloading manual lists the cartridge overall length (COAL) as tested for each bullet. Changing the COAL (and seating depth) alters the effective case capacity (which affects pressure and velocity), and determines if a particular powder charge will be compressed or not.

Depends on bullet ogive profile and bearing surface length. COAL alone will not indicate if a load will be compressed or not.

If you know the BOAL, you can then deduce from the published as-tested COAL how much of the case's neck is occupied by that bullet, and this can be compared to other data published for different bullets of the same weight, but different BOALs, seated to a different COALs. Bottom line, a bullet's length is a legitimate figure for a serious handloader to know.

No, no, and no!

You might not guess that the bullet length would be a closely-guarded trade secret. And for most manufacturers, it's not. Nosler displays the BOAL right on their product pages. Sierra and Hornady customer service reps will cheerfully divulge it for the asking. But not Speer.

You can always measure the bullets.

I was a bit shocked when, upon asking Speer Customer Service (via e-mail) what the BOAL was for a particular bullet, I received this reply: "The OAL of the bullet is proprietary."

What? Really? I pressed the chap who responded with a few follow-up e-mails, and, to make a long story short, was treated as if I was a child playing with matches who had no legitimate use for that information, and was informed that I should just "Load to the tested COAL and check for proper feed and function" and that "2.235” was tested in the 223 Rem."

Sounds like good advice to me.

Obviously, I shouldn't be worrying my pretty little head about such things as BOAL. And in any event, Speer ain't stupid enough to give away such a vital trade secret to some joker for the mere asking. After all, I could be a spy from one of their evil competitors, trying to reverse-engineer one of Speer's fabulous bullets!

I agree.

I am a bit disheartened by this experience, since I grew up in Lewiston, know the Speer family, know folks who work at Speer, and always liked and tried to use Speer bullets.

Then it should be easy for you to get a bullet and measure it.


If you need any more advice let me know. I will also see what I can do about getting you that bullet length.

 

[Brians356]

I can sort of understand their not wanting to give you a specific number. They give you the length to the thousands, and the next thing you know they are receiving hundreds of complaints because the bullets don't all measure to that length.

Funny you mention it, I asked him to round it off to the nearest 0.010" and he declined.

Also, I found a figure posted in a list at jbmballistics.com that seems plausible, asked the rep to confirm it, and he said the figure was "incorrect". All he had to do was say "it's close enough" but instead he implied it was flat-out wrong. I'm sorry but that's not justifiable for a figure of no proprietary value to Speer.

 

[jonbearman]

My opinion is if they wouldn't tell me ,switch brands. I understand what eric is getting at however their crummy way of relating this to you is foolish and I seriously doubt if they relincquished the imfo you seek would cause mass hysteria. I now run all berger,hornady,sierra,etc etc just because of a similar experience with pistol bullets shedding jackets. I myself am sick and tired of companys not backing up their product and treating customers to nothing more than a line of garbage when you call. Sierra bulletsmiths will tell you anything and be kind and considerate to you ,and they take time to teach you versus a brush off.

 

[Brians356]

Most vendors either publish or will provide bullet overall length (BOAL). As most of you know, this figure is useful when analyzing and comparing velocity figures published in reloading manuals.

Uh, no!

Erik, you simply cannot help yourself, I take it? Save yourself the effort. With all due respect - sincerely - I don't care about the bullet length, or whether you or anyone else feels it has any value. It had value to me at the time I contacted Speer about it. I might just as well have been asking them what their business hours were. This thread is about Speer customer service experience - period - for what it's worth. If it's worth nothing to you - that's fairly obvious by now!

 

[Erik Cortina]

Most vendors either publish or will provide bullet overall length (BOAL). As most of you know, this figure is useful when analyzing and comparing velocity figures published in reloading manuals.

Uh, no!

Erik, you simply cannot help yourself, I take it? Save yourself the effort. With all due respect - sincerely - I don't care about the bullet length, or whether you or anyone else feels it has any value. It had value to me at the time I contacted Speer about it. I might just as well have been asking them what their business hours were. This thread is about Speer customer service experience - period - for what it's worth. If it's worth nothing to you - that's fairly obvious by now!

Ok, I must apologize to you. I was just having fun driving my point home. ;D

I agree with others, if they don't cooperate with you, don't use them. However, I do feel this thread has absolutely no value and no place on this forum, which is the reason I was giving you a hard time.

 

[MrMajestic]

http://www.shootforum.com/forum/bulletdb.html

 

[Brians356]

Ok, I must apologize to you. I was just having fun driving my point home. ;D

I agree with others, if they don't cooperate with you, don't use them. However, I do feel this thread has absolutely no value and no place on this forum, which is the reason I was giving you a hard time.

You might be right about the appropriateness of posting this here. I was fulfilling a pledge I made to the all-knowing young chap who put me off my feed at Speer to share my glad experience with some folks who might be interested.

As for the technical side, I'd love to sit down with you over drinks and doodle it out on cocktail napkins, because I feel we are like two ships passing in the night here, and I think there is some merit in my original quest, if you only knew the details of what sent me off on it. But I defer to discretion as the better part of valor, for the time being, and quietly withdraw, with thanks for your forbearance.

 

[chkunz]

brians356, I think customer experience with the suppliers we do business, both good and bad, is important information to share on this forum and I understood exactly your point for this post. Thanks for sharing Take care, Clyde.

 

[Raythemanroe]

Eric in my opinion is correct, your info you seek is pointless and apparently to Speer it is also. I PERSONALLY would have found it easier to appease you..I'm not a giant Speer fan but an F- because they don't care to measure your wanted boal..I'll worry about the important numbers..


Ray

 

[areaone]

My experience with customer service in today's market has a lot to be desired as far as customer service goes. Normally it is some minimum wage "giggly girl" that is not very knowledgeable or needs a two week vacation at Charm School. I am finding more and more rude people in CS due to the youthful mentality. Recently dealt with a Direct TV csr, he was late 50's and downsized from a previous employer. He was great, should be giving seminars on customer service, but he is not nor has been typical of csr in my recent experiences. I have used Sierra Bulletsmiths on a few occasions... Great bunch and informative, so the same with Berger and Barnes.

 

[Raythemanroe]

Sierra has great CS as far as I'm concerned.. I got to say that every single business I have dealt with getting into BR shooting has been better then I expected. Just my experience


Ray

 

[lawman29]

You get what you pay for...

 

[Michael Courtney]

In all my dealings with reloading component vendors' customer service, I've never had an experience such I just had with Speer Bullets customer service. I relate this for what it's worth, to whom it may concern - no advice sought.

Most vendors either publish or will provide bullet overall length (BOAL). As most of you know, this figure is useful when analyzing and comparing velocity figures published in reloading manuals.

Every reloading manual lists the cartridge overall length (COAL) as tested for each bullet. Changing the COAL (and seating depth) alters the effective case capacity (which affects pressure and velocity), and determines if a particular powder charge will be compressed or not.

If you know the BOAL, you can then deduce from the published as-tested COAL how much of the case's neck is occupied by that bullet, and this can be compared to other data published for different bullets of the same weight, but different BOALs, seated to a different COALs. Bottom line, a bullet's length is a legitimate figure for a serious handloader to know.

You might not guess that the bullet length would be a closely-guarded trade secret. And for most manufacturers, it's not. Nosler displays the BOAL right on their product pages. Sierra and Hornady customer service reps will cheerfully divulge it for the asking. But not Speer.

I was a bit shocked when, upon asking Speer Customer Service (via e-mail) what the BOAL was for a particular bullet, I received this reply: "The OAL of the bullet is proprietary."

What? Really? I pressed the chap who responded with a few follow-up e-mails, and, to make a long story short, was treated as if I was a child playing with matches who had no legitimate use for that information, and was informed that I should just "Load to the tested COAL and check for proper feed and function" and that "2.235” was tested in the 223 Rem."

Which is odd, and not a little telling, because I never even mentioned 223 Rem, or any other cartridge.

Obviously, I shouldn't be worrying my pretty little head about such things as BOAL. And in any event, Speer ain't stupid enough to give away such a vital trade secret to some joker for the mere asking. After all, I could be a spy from one of their evil competitors, trying to reverse-engineer one of Speer's fabulous bullets!

I am a bit disheartened by this experience, since I grew up in Lewiston, know the Speer family, know folks who work at Speer, and always liked and tried to use Speer bullets.

Speer is owned and operated by ATK, which is a much bigger company and in the process of splitting into two companies, one for their defense related businesses and one for their sporting businesses. Their sporting sales have been keeping the ship afloat for the past few years while defense spending has been reduced. ATK owns Savage, Bushnell, and Federal also.

One hopes that this is just a blip related to the split and re-organization. I would be concerned that this is more a symptom of such strong sales that there is no need to provide better customer service. Alternatively, Speer may want to remain free to change the spec of that bullet in the future or allow its length to vary more than their competitors products lot to lot.

There are many legitimate reasons why a customer would want to know the length of a bullet. Too bad Speer has refused to provide it. In cases where we've needed to use the JBM lengths before ordering a bullet, we've found the lengths listed at JBM to be good to within 0.01".

 

[Brians356]

Speer is owned and operated by ATK, which is a much bigger company and in the process of splitting into two companies, one for their defense related businesses and one for their sporting businesses. Their sporting sales have been keeping the ship afloat for the past few years while defense spending has been reduced. ATK owns Savage, Bushnell, and Federal also.

I no longer live in Lewiston, but folks I know there say ATK's newest facility, built a only few years just for defense contract production, is running 24/7 and struggling to keep up. My impression is that one reason for shortages of ammo and components on the consumer market is that manufacturers are so buried under defense orders.