Speed vs cold clean bore to fouled bore
- Thread starter broncman
- Start date
I don't know what is up with mine. Might be mine are moly coated. First round of a 155.5 berger out of my clean palma rifle was 3018, the term clean for me is 3 wet patches then dry patches to dry that way I don't remove the moly from the bore but after 10 foulers my velo dropped and now sits at 2960-2965.
This might explain some if the issues I have had, but not the sudden flyers at 100. I believe it is taking more shots than I thought for my loads to settle from clean bore. Looks like it is going to be a smart move to shoot maybe 5 or so foulers after the cleaning session and before the start of a days match.
Ken
Ken
This is normal, and then there is to consider what 'clean bore' means to you.
If you use any petroleum based cleaners they'll leave residue, and that can take a good bit to burn out. A few shots here is not enough for stable fouling.
You could take your gun to truly clean, dry bore & prefouled(with WS2). Store it like this in a good place and your first shot will be as good as any to follow.
Get the bore dry with alcohol, then dry burnish in prefouling with powdery mop.
If you use any petroleum based cleaners they'll leave residue, and that can take a good bit to burn out. A few shots here is not enough for stable fouling.
You could take your gun to truly clean, dry bore & prefouled(with WS2). Store it like this in a good place and your first shot will be as good as any to follow.
Get the bore dry with alcohol, then dry burnish in prefouling with powdery mop.
mikecr said:
mikecr,
I should have said this in my previous post - I have just started using Froglube (www.froglube.com) in place of the usual petroleum based solvents, it's use is said to negate the need for a few shots to burn out the usual residue (as there is no petroleum residue from Froglube), and as you say, return the barrrel to stable. Too early to say how good this stuff is although all the reports I have seen have been positive. The objective includes to 'manage" the amount of copper rather than remove all trace when cleaning then need a few foulers to restore. This might mean the full barrel clean might be extended to 200-300+ round intervals without losing accuracy, all this of course depending on the barrel.
Martin
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Cody,
How many moly rounds through that barrel, two wet and two dry? The reason that I ask is that a long time back I shot moly coated bullets in a rifle, and eventually got a buildup of moly and powder fouling that took a lot of brushing with two brushes and a lot of solvent to remove. Of course, in short range benchrest a .3 at 100 yd is a disaster. If I were going to coat bullets today, it would probably be tungsten disulphide or HBN. The tungsten disulphide is reputed to be self limiting on buildup in a barrel, where the moly evidently is not.
Boyd
How many moly rounds through that barrel, two wet and two dry? The reason that I ask is that a long time back I shot moly coated bullets in a rifle, and eventually got a buildup of moly and powder fouling that took a lot of brushing with two brushes and a lot of solvent to remove. Of course, in short range benchrest a .3 at 100 yd is a disaster. If I were going to coat bullets today, it would probably be tungsten disulphide or HBN. The tungsten disulphide is reputed to be self limiting on buildup in a barrel, where the moly evidently is not.
Boyd
Boyd, it has about 500 rounds through it. Last time it I cleaned it was around 150 ago. Last match it was still holding a half MOA elavation at 500 with iron sights. I usually run 2-4 wet patches then enough to dry it. I still have not gotten up to a build up of moly yet. I tried HBN when it first came out, honestly my moly shot better. Still haven't tried tungsten disulphide but it's on my to-do list in other rifles.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
It took me quite a while to develop a problem, and the powder may have been a contributor as well. It was 748. At first, the moly shot better than uncoated bullets, but after that it kind of snuck up on me. Back then, bore scopes were not so common. If you try the tungsten, I will be interested in your results. I can tell you one thing, if you clean and degrease a powder measure drum and the surface that it slides within, and buff both surfaces with a little tungsten disulphide, you should be very pleased with the result, just as long as you are careful not to get it on anything that you don't want blackened.
Joe Maisto
jam711
BoydAllen said:
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Joe,
Looking at my old measures that run steel against cast iron (SAECO and Hollywood) their drums and the measure body surfaces can become smeared with powder residue that comes from such things as ball powder getting between the parts. By using cloth and/or paper towels and various solvents to remove this build up, and a dry lube such as the tungsten disulphide that I mentioned (using a patch to buff it into the clean dry surfaces), a much smoother action is achieved.
The reason that I first tried this goes back to around '99, when I was writing about some of the products that Dave Dohrmann sold, and had sent me samples of, one of which was a small container of tungsten disulphide powder, that he sold, along with moly that he sold for coating bullets. He was the one that told me about how slick it makes powder measures. I tried it, and he was right, so, from time to time, I clean my measures and reapply it. IMO it works very well for this purpose, but the credit for the idea goes to Dave.
As far as the number of rounds that can be fired without cleaning goes, while your barrel maker friend has complete control of the interior finish of the barrels that he shoots in competition, most of us do not, so we must learn to work with what we have.
Close to 15 years ago, I discussed barrel cleaning frequency with George Kelby, when he made it out to a match at the Visalia, CA range. At the time I was following the practice of cleaning between every individual match. George told me that he thought that most benchrest shooters clean more often than is needed, and that every second or third match would do just as well. After that I cleaned every second or third match, depending on the number of sighters shot. Some time after that, I switched to patching once during an agg, with a more thorough cleaning including brushing, at the noon break, and at the end of the day. With patching only, I would not need more than a couple of rounds on the sighter to reassure myself that things were in order for the record, but after brushing, experience taught me that if I did not want to be surprised with an errant shot that at least twice as many on the sighter were required, even if the first two looked good.
It seems to me that the main consideration for determining cleaning method and frequency is the requirement for keeping ahead of the hard carbon situation, and that this can depend on what powder, and even to what pressure one loads. For example, when shooting 133, it is relatively easy to keep things in order with the regimen that I described, but with almost any other powder, more is required. It is not that they are inordinately dirty, but that 133 is so clean. Shooters who switch to some of the new powders that seem to be doing so well, would do well to keep this in mind. What works for 133 will not necessarily do the job for other powders.
Looking at my old measures that run steel against cast iron (SAECO and Hollywood) their drums and the measure body surfaces can become smeared with powder residue that comes from such things as ball powder getting between the parts. By using cloth and/or paper towels and various solvents to remove this build up, and a dry lube such as the tungsten disulphide that I mentioned (using a patch to buff it into the clean dry surfaces), a much smoother action is achieved.
The reason that I first tried this goes back to around '99, when I was writing about some of the products that Dave Dohrmann sold, and had sent me samples of, one of which was a small container of tungsten disulphide powder, that he sold, along with moly that he sold for coating bullets. He was the one that told me about how slick it makes powder measures. I tried it, and he was right, so, from time to time, I clean my measures and reapply it. IMO it works very well for this purpose, but the credit for the idea goes to Dave.
As far as the number of rounds that can be fired without cleaning goes, while your barrel maker friend has complete control of the interior finish of the barrels that he shoots in competition, most of us do not, so we must learn to work with what we have.
Close to 15 years ago, I discussed barrel cleaning frequency with George Kelby, when he made it out to a match at the Visalia, CA range. At the time I was following the practice of cleaning between every individual match. George told me that he thought that most benchrest shooters clean more often than is needed, and that every second or third match would do just as well. After that I cleaned every second or third match, depending on the number of sighters shot. Some time after that, I switched to patching once during an agg, with a more thorough cleaning including brushing, at the noon break, and at the end of the day. With patching only, I would not need more than a couple of rounds on the sighter to reassure myself that things were in order for the record, but after brushing, experience taught me that if I did not want to be surprised with an errant shot that at least twice as many on the sighter were required, even if the first two looked good.
It seems to me that the main consideration for determining cleaning method and frequency is the requirement for keeping ahead of the hard carbon situation, and that this can depend on what powder, and even to what pressure one loads. For example, when shooting 133, it is relatively easy to keep things in order with the regimen that I described, but with almost any other powder, more is required. It is not that they are inordinately dirty, but that 133 is so clean. Shooters who switch to some of the new powders that seem to be doing so well, would do well to keep this in mind. What works for 133 will not necessarily do the job for other powders.
Joe Maisto
jam711
Thanks Boyd.
First things first.
Dave Dohrman, my old friend. He lived just across the Illinois border from me here in WI. We met while we were both getting into this shooting business back in '96 at a local range . He went to work here at a gander Mountain store. They transferred him to Virginia, whereby he was laid off. We talked of this. He was infact quite clever,as witnessed by a few of us while still here in Wisconsin.
He had to make a living in some way, so began putting his mind to work and you know the rest.
Cleaning...
I'm with you on letting a match or two go by without the cleaning we all seem to do. In my case, I use an old lot, ( but a hot lot) of 8208. It is the filthiest powder out there I'm sure. You simply would not believe my patches.
Another old timer uses a .22 patch first to retain more fluid in the bore, and then goes with the 1- 3/8, as I do.
At the end of the day after all is said and done, I use JB toward the end, and then another patch of Butches to get any of that out, with another dry patch after that.
I have had the pleasure of shooting and talking with the best in the business. However, Tony Boyer is NOT the only one that knows this game. Bill Forrester has told me a few tricks as well as many other top notch shooters, too numerous to mention. I am almost out of my 8208, and may have to use up my RE-11 from the 60's, as well as some 2230 I have. I did buy a jug last year of 133, but don't think I'll use it. I don't want to be chasing the temps and retuning.
Jack Neary ,Joe Krupa, (whom I shoot with in the Eastern Region), go to the line with 30-45 rounds. 15 each with differant loads, just for that reason.
Thats why they purchased some of my larger cartridge boxes which I make at www.benchrest.com/maisto
Best I can hope for is--- Lester has some LT32 when I get to Ohio for the SS.
Joe
First things first.
Dave Dohrman, my old friend. He lived just across the Illinois border from me here in WI. We met while we were both getting into this shooting business back in '96 at a local range . He went to work here at a gander Mountain store. They transferred him to Virginia, whereby he was laid off. We talked of this. He was infact quite clever,as witnessed by a few of us while still here in Wisconsin.
He had to make a living in some way, so began putting his mind to work and you know the rest.
Cleaning...
I'm with you on letting a match or two go by without the cleaning we all seem to do. In my case, I use an old lot, ( but a hot lot) of 8208. It is the filthiest powder out there I'm sure. You simply would not believe my patches.
Another old timer uses a .22 patch first to retain more fluid in the bore, and then goes with the 1- 3/8, as I do.
At the end of the day after all is said and done, I use JB toward the end, and then another patch of Butches to get any of that out, with another dry patch after that.
I have had the pleasure of shooting and talking with the best in the business. However, Tony Boyer is NOT the only one that knows this game. Bill Forrester has told me a few tricks as well as many other top notch shooters, too numerous to mention. I am almost out of my 8208, and may have to use up my RE-11 from the 60's, as well as some 2230 I have. I did buy a jug last year of 133, but don't think I'll use it. I don't want to be chasing the temps and retuning.
Jack Neary ,Joe Krupa, (whom I shoot with in the Eastern Region), go to the line with 30-45 rounds. 15 each with differant loads, just for that reason.
Thats why they purchased some of my larger cartridge boxes which I make at www.benchrest.com/maisto
Best I can hope for is--- Lester has some LT32 when I get to Ohio for the SS.
Joe
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Joe,
I use a .22 jag with 1 3/8 square patches in my 6PPC to carry more solvent into the bore. The only disadvantage is that because of the looser fit, it takes me a couple more patches to dry the bore. While you are trying some different powders, just for grins, do a full workup with Xterminator. You might be surprised. A younger friend shot his first teen agg. at a club match with it. I got the tip from another shooter who had tried a variety of powders, and having a scrap of it, I gave it a try. It is fairly clean, and the speed and density are such that if you want to go fast, it will take you there, without cases being too empty at more usual velocities. Good luck with getting some LT 32. As you probably know, it has done well at matches, showing great potential. We can thank Lou for the years and dollars that made that happen. For those that tend to work within the medium to slower range, its slower version, the Canadian made 2015, that has been out for a couple of years, is worth investigating.
I use a .22 jag with 1 3/8 square patches in my 6PPC to carry more solvent into the bore. The only disadvantage is that because of the looser fit, it takes me a couple more patches to dry the bore. While you are trying some different powders, just for grins, do a full workup with Xterminator. You might be surprised. A younger friend shot his first teen agg. at a club match with it. I got the tip from another shooter who had tried a variety of powders, and having a scrap of it, I gave it a try. It is fairly clean, and the speed and density are such that if you want to go fast, it will take you there, without cases being too empty at more usual velocities. Good luck with getting some LT 32. As you probably know, it has done well at matches, showing great potential. We can thank Lou for the years and dollars that made that happen. For those that tend to work within the medium to slower range, its slower version, the Canadian made 2015, that has been out for a couple of years, is worth investigating.
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