Speed kills - 40 gr vs 53 gr in a 223

[drover]

My first prairie dog safari was in 1984. I hope to have enough experience some day to have a valid opinion.

Nice rack

 

[ben lurkin]

Regarding terminal performance, it’s a lot more involved than just the energy on paper at at a certain distance. As a more extreme example, a buddy of mine and I were shooting pdogs at a little over 700 yards. I had my 6mm BR shooting 69 gr Berger VLDs. My buddy was shooting his 22 Dasher loaded with 36 gr Varmint Grenades. There’s no doubt I had the ballistically superior bullet! Those VGs are about like shooting styrofoam from a ballistics perspective. We would switch back and forth shooting; one spotting for the other. There was an immense difference though when I would hit one at that range and when he would. I would knock them off their mounds and they would do the dying cockroach dance. He would hit them and they would get blown 10’-20’ off their mounds still partially vaporized - even at that distance. We still laugh about it when it comes up. (I had a bit higher percentage of hits though.) It’s much more about energy transfer. I was shooting target bullets and he was shooting bullets containing compressed powdered tin/copper. Those things dump all their energy into whatever they hit. I met the guy who designed them. He had a pharmacy background and used the same techniques for press forming pills applied to the cores of the VG bullets.

 

[BobbyJ]

l'm always interested what others shoot. For me, lts a learning experience.

Referencing 'light vs heavy'- l love 40s. My long time pd buddy Larry loves 55s. He points out he can shoot FURTHER. l have little interest in 'further'. lnside 250yds his 55s will knock chunks from a PD. My 40s will cut that same dog in HALF

What twist rate is he using on the 55s and you on the 40s?

 

[BobbyJ]

Nice rack

If he keeps at it someday he could have a valid opinion.

 

[BobbyJ]

Regarding terminal performance, it’s a lot more involved than just the energy on paper at at a certain distance. As a more extreme example, a buddy of mine and I were shooting pdogs at a little over 700 yards. I had my 6mm BR shooting 69 gr Berger VLDs. My buddy was shooting his 22 Dasher loaded with 36 gr Varmint Grenades. There’s no doubt I had the ballistically superior bullet! Those VGs are about like shooting styrofoam from a ballistics perspective. We would switch back and forth shooting; one spotting for the other. There was an immense difference though when I would hit one at that range and when he would. I would knock them off their mounds and they would do the dying cockroach dance. He would hit them and they would get blown 10’-20’ off their mounds still partially vaporized - even at that distance. We still laugh about it when it comes up. (I had a bit higher percentage of hits though.) It’s much more about energy transfer. I was shooting target bullets and he was shooting bullets containing compressed powdered tin/copper. Those things dump all their energy into whatever they hit. I met the guy who designed them. He had a pharmacy background and used the same techniques for press forming pills applied to the cores of the VG bullets.

How fast was he shooting the 36gr and what twist rate?

I'll have to try some of those V Grenades.

 

[JSH]

That is interesting thought on wether a prairie dog is some what dehydrated at certain times of the year. I know of a person that studies them and other critters in dry climates.

 

[ben lurkin]

How fast was he shooting the 36gr and what twist rate?

I'll have to try some of those V Grenades.

I don’t know the exact velocity. I’m sure they were over 4k fps though. I would have to ask him about the twist rate. Probably 12 or 14 though. It was built using one of Stiller’s prototype actions. Pretty cool gun!

 

[BobbyJ]

I don’t know the exact velocity. I’m sure they were over 4k fps though. I would have to ask him about the twist rate. Probably 12 or 14 though. It was built using one of Stiller’s prototype actions. Pretty cool gun!

"I were shooting pdogs at a little over 700 yards"
Is that a typo? A 36gr VG was able to Blow up a PD at 700 yards? I thought the blow ups were all inside 250 yards. That is impressive if correct.

 

[ben lurkin]

"I were shooting pdogs at a little over 700 yards"
Is that a typo? A 36gr VG was able to Blow up a PD at 700 yards? I thought the blow ups were all inside 250 yards. That is impressive if correct.

I didn’t think so either and that’s how it started was on a bet. My buddy used to shoot competitively though with some pretty big names in TX. He’s a great shooter.

 

[sw282]

Regarding terminal performance, it’s a lot more involved than just the energy on paper at at a certain distance. As a more extreme example, a buddy of mine and I were shooting pdogs at a little over 700 yards. I had my 6mm BR shooting 69 gr Berger VLDs. My buddy was shooting his 22 Dasher loaded with 36 gr Varmint Grenades. There’s no doubt I had the ballistically superior bullet! Those VGs are about like shooting styrofoam from a ballistics perspective. We would switch back and forth shooting; one spotting for the other. There was an immense difference though when I would hit one at that range and when he would. I would knock them off their mounds and they would do the dying cockroach dance. He would hit them and they would get blown 10’-20’ off their mounds still partially vaporized - even at that distance. We still laugh about it when it comes up. (I had a bit higher percentage of hits though.) It’s much more about energy transfer. I was shooting target bullets and he was shooting bullets containing compressed powdered tin/copper. Those things dump all their energy into whatever they hit. I met the guy who designed them. He had a pharmacy background and used the same techniques for press forming pills applied to the cores

What twist rate is he using on the 55s and you on the 40s?

Standard Remington 700 223s. Mine Was an old Heavy Varmint, 1-12". He has a couple old Senderos in 223. He had one rebarreled by Shilen a few years back. l think both are one-in-twelve.

 

[markT]

My first prairie dog safari was in 1984. I hope to have enough experience some day to have a valid opinion.

Is this pic from 1984?

 

[alf]

Is this pic from 1984?

Mid to late 2000's.......

 

[Greenyonline2]

How about taking that one step further? Neck it down to a 20. Your 40gr bullet goes from a BC of about 200 (in 22) to 275! Should hold onto the flatter curve farther for the same amount of powder. Shot 22-250 back in the day and favored the 50 to 53 gr bullets at 3800 to 4000. Outside that (below or above) it needed different twist depending on which way you went. My most accurate was Speer 52grSP and Hornady 53gr HP at just under 3900fps. Bust chucks at 300yd with authority.

 

[Plumsask]

If any of you have ready my replies to PD bullets you have likely noticed that I am a proponent of the 40 gr bullets for PD shooting - here is the reason I favor the 40 gr over the 50/53 gr bullets.

Below are the JBM ballistic charts comparing them - it is obvious that the 40 gr does not give up anything significant to the 53 and in most instances the 40 gr bests the 53

3700 fps out of the 223 with 40 gr is obtainable with numerous powders.
3000 fps out of the 223 with 50/53 gr bullets is the top velocity with most powders only attaining 2850 - 2900 fps.
These are not "pie in the sky" figures - the 3700 and 3000 fps are from load data from reloading manuals. These calculations are top velocity with both bullets.

The 40 gr Nosler has less drop, drift figures are essentially comparble, energy figures favor the 40 gr out to 300 yds and then slightly shifts in favor of the 53 gr but so little as to be insignificant.

Recoil differences between the 40 and 53 is negligible but is slightly in favor of the 40 which may make a difference on a high volume day.

40 gr Nosler ballistic tip @ 3700 fps - 10 mph wind

Calculated Table​
Range​	Drop​	Drop​	Windage​	Windage​	Velocity​	Mach​	Energy​	Time​	Lead​	Lead​
(yd)​	(in)​	(MOA)​	(in)​	(MOA)​	(ft/s)​	(none)​	(ft•lbs)​	(s)​	(in)​	(MOA)​
0​	-2​	***​	0​	***​	3700.0​	3.314​	1215.7​	0.000​	0​	***​
100​	-0​	-0​	1​	1​	3192.9​	2.860​	905.3​	0.087​	0​	0​
200​	-2​	-1​	5​	2​	2740.8​	2.455​	667.1​	0.189​	0​	0​
300​	-9​	-3​	11​	4​	2331.2​	2.088​	482.6​	0.307​	0​	0​
400​	-22​	-5​	22​	5​	1958.4​	1.754​	340.6​	0.448​	0​	0​
500​	-44​	-8​	37​	7​	1625.7​	1.456​	234.7​	0.616​	0​	0​

53 gr Hornady V-Max @ 3000 fps - 10 mph wind

Calculated Table​
Range​	Drop​	Drop​	Windage​	Windage​	Velocity​	Mach​	Energy​	Time​	Lead​	Lead​
(yd)​	(in)​	(MOA)​	(in)​	(MOA)​	(ft/s)​	(none)​	(ft•lbs)​	(s)​	(in)​	(MOA)​
0​	-2​	***​	0​	***​	3000.0​	2.687​	1059.0​	0.000​	0​	***​
100​	-0​	-0​	1​	1​	2666.0​	2.388​	836.3​	0.106​	0​	0​
200​	-3​	-2​	5​	2​	2355.6​	2.110​	652.9​	0.226​	0​	0​
300​	-13​	-4​	11​	3​	2066.4​	1.851​	502.4​	0.362​	0​	0​
400​	-31​	-7​	21​	5​	1799.2​	1.612​	380.9​	0.517​	0​	0​
500​	-60​	-11​	35​	7​	1557.8​	1.395​	285.5​	0.697​	0​	0​

40 gr Nosler ballistic tip recoil - 9# rifle

Recoil​
Input Data​
Charge Weight:	26.0 gr​	Muzzle Velocity:	3700.0 ft/s​
Firearm Weight:	9.0 lb​	Bullet Weight:	40.0 gr​
Output Data​
Recoil Velocity:	4.3 ft/s​	Recoil Energy:	2.6 ft•lbs​
Recoil Impulse:	1.2 lb•s​

53 gr Hornady V-Max recoil - 9# rifle

Recoil​
Input Data​
Charge Weight:	28.0 gr​	Muzzle Velocity:	3000.0 ft/s​
Firearm Weight:	9.0 lb​	Bullet Weight:	53.0 gr​
Output Data​
Recoil Velocity:	4.6 ft/s​	Recoil Energy:	3.0 ft•lbs​
Recoil Impulse:	1.3 lb•s​

In my 26" bolt 223 with a silent 1:12, 25.8 gr benchmark with a 53 vmax or varmageddon gives 3350 fps....no signs of pressure. Work up to this load.
27 gr h335 with a 40 gr vmax gives 3740

 

[Beiruty]

The need for speed

 

[Beiruty]

 

[Gary in MD]

Speed sells and I’m buying!!
3850fps with a 55 grain spbt is pretty good for my needs. Figured that I’d get the Swift out a couple more times while the Dirt Grizzlies are fattening up for winter. This morning so far….

 

[AckleymanII]

Drover, I am shooting the 53's at 3400+ with a heavy charge of Benchmark, cCi 450's in a 24", 12T remington factory barrel.

40's run out of gas around 275 yards where the dogs just fall over, not to mention how they blow like a kite in the wind.

40g in a 9Twist at short range are impressive. Every see a dog detonate and watch the pieces parts rotate like the barrel twist?

 

[Hammer]

40 VMAX from 40-inch barrel in 22-6mm...

 

[Beiruty]

40 VMAX from 40-inch barrel in 22-6mm...

WOW 40" barrel, that is bold. The bullet is rocketing