Yes, a case of comparing apples with elephants, esp at those vels.
Speed kills - 40 gr vs 53 gr in a 223
- Thread starter drover
- Start date
Yes, a case of comparing apples with elephants, esp at those vels.
Those ~50-53 gr velocities are severly handicapped. If you want to compare apples to apples, use something like Quickload or GRT to compare velocities. As an example, I see 3,340 fps out of a 22.4" Tikka T3 .223 with a max load of Benchmark using 50 gr Sierra Blitzkings.
With that said, I've used the 55 gr VMAX in the p-dog fields and have never felt hampered by them. They fragmented well and handled the wind just fine. Speed is just one of the factors.....I'd compare wind drift as well. It's always been windy when I've been in the field. We shot one day when there were 52mph gusts. That took some "English".
With that said, I've used the 55 gr VMAX in the p-dog fields and have never felt hampered by them. They fragmented well and handled the wind just fine. Speed is just one of the factors.....I'd compare wind drift as well. It's always been windy when I've been in the field. We shot one day when there were 52mph gusts. That took some "English".
dusterdave173
Silver $$ Contributor
This is all good reading
many here say out to 300 yard works great etc
Our experience first time out was few shots under 300--The guide set us in a field where there were plenty of PD's but 300 min and most 400 with plenty at 500
They swear they never shot same field but every other week
I go back I will be prepared for the longer shots and very happy if there are some closer in
Our hit percentage was terrible but our fun factor was off the charts
We shot mostly 50gVmax my pal shot some 40gVmax near the end and did very well inside 300 with them He liked the lower recoil and being able to see the hits
After we worked so hard at 400-500-- under 300 seems like a chip shot that could be done with any bullet
Counting the days until we can go again!
many here say out to 300 yard works great etc
Our experience first time out was few shots under 300--The guide set us in a field where there were plenty of PD's but 300 min and most 400 with plenty at 500
They swear they never shot same field but every other week
I go back I will be prepared for the longer shots and very happy if there are some closer in
Our hit percentage was terrible but our fun factor was off the charts
We shot mostly 50gVmax my pal shot some 40gVmax near the end and did very well inside 300 with them He liked the lower recoil and being able to see the hits
After we worked so hard at 400-500-- under 300 seems like a chip shot that could be done with any bullet
Counting the days until we can go again!
What kind of case capacity increase do you get in the 223 Ackley over the standard 223?
Also what's the barrel length on you Ackley?
urbanrifleman
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My 223 is a Howa 1500 is a kit rifle, back when Howa sold barreled actions to shops and the shop put a stock on them. Maybe Howa still does that I don't know. Great rifles, it pisses you off when you fall but falling with a $400- rig is not dropping a $1,500 rig.
It's a 22" varmint contour barrel, 1 in 12 twist and no matter what I tried I just couldn't get anything more than the listed maximum velocity (in the Hornady 3rd Edition) manual out of it with anything above 40 grain.
I reload quite a bit and I probably have 12 or more different powders in inventory and nothing I tried got the velocity up. Seating long, short, faster powder slower powder, nothing for over a year. A 55 grain was at 3,300 FPS and that was it, any more and there were pressure signs. The 300 yard wind drift was unacceptable, as was the trajectory at 300+ yards. Accuracy was fine on very calm days, averaging around an inch+ at 300 yards with a 3,200 FPS load, but drop and when the wind became rather normal groups grew, then shooting in terraced fields was a non-starter.
Then I had a brain fart and tried the 40 grain VMAX and H322, whoopee! I got 1 1/16" groups at 300 yards at 3,900 FPS. Now the groups in typical winds worked for head shots and the reduced time in flight was much better on terraced fields with a real improvement in drop. Now I avoid shots beyond 350 unless the the wind is LOW but that's just me. If I aim for the head and hit the body I consider that a miss, if I completely miss I rarely get a second shot as the little turds run away.
It's a 22" varmint contour barrel, 1 in 12 twist and no matter what I tried I just couldn't get anything more than the listed maximum velocity (in the Hornady 3rd Edition) manual out of it with anything above 40 grain.
I reload quite a bit and I probably have 12 or more different powders in inventory and nothing I tried got the velocity up. Seating long, short, faster powder slower powder, nothing for over a year. A 55 grain was at 3,300 FPS and that was it, any more and there were pressure signs. The 300 yard wind drift was unacceptable, as was the trajectory at 300+ yards. Accuracy was fine on very calm days, averaging around an inch+ at 300 yards with a 3,200 FPS load, but drop and when the wind became rather normal groups grew, then shooting in terraced fields was a non-starter.
Then I had a brain fart and tried the 40 grain VMAX and H322, whoopee! I got 1 1/16" groups at 300 yards at 3,900 FPS. Now the groups in typical winds worked for head shots and the reduced time in flight was much better on terraced fields with a real improvement in drop. Now I avoid shots beyond 350 unless the the wind is LOW but that's just me. If I aim for the head and hit the body I consider that a miss, if I completely miss I rarely get a second shot as the little turds run away.
Thanks that makes sense, my 223 is only 22".
urbanrifleman
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Back when I shot straight 223 I found the 40 grain was the only way to get big explosions.
urbanrifleman
Site $$ Sponsor
That was with slow twist barrels. Of course, today I might try to spin the 55 more like with a 8 and 7 twist to get the bullet to fly apart. My customers report quite good explosions with the various .224 calibers even with match bullets. I assume that is because we are using 8 and 7 twist barrels now. And not 12 and 14.
So speed kills, but so does spinning the bullet really hard.
So speed kills, but so does spinning the bullet really hard.
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2020 was my first prairie dog hunting trip so not a ton of experience on that front but looking forward to getting more. My experience has been competing in NRA Hipower matches, plinking from the bench, and shooting vermin in the back yard. Over the past 3 decades, I've developed several accurate loads for 40g and 50gr pills for both bolt action rifles, and my 20" flat top. Loads for both have consistently produced groups that were sub 1/2 MOA with several powders running 3600 and 3400 fps respectively. I have loads that will push 75gr pills accurately over 2900 fps. The velocities in the original post are definitely slow and greatly exaggerate the advantage that a 40gr load has. I also have a reduced load with Green Dot that pushes 40-50gr pills around 1900 fps with excellent accuracy. For reference, when developing those loads I start at 6.5gr and load up to 9.0 gr and go with the load that shoots the best. For the reduced loads, I prefer the 40s because they come apart a little easier. I use them for coons and groundhogs in the back yard so its nice to have the bullet expend all of its energy in the target. I took this reduced load on my first Pdog hunt last year and they were great out to 150+ yds. We spent most of the time spotting and stalking. We shot off of Bogpod tripods and limited our shots to 200 yds and under. Basically set up, shoot everything out to 200 yds, move 100 yds or so, and repeat. There was some wind drift, bit it was pretty easy to compensate for. It was a LOT less wind drift than the 17HMR was producing. Terminal performance wasn't breath taking, but the load still anchored them. The report was low enough that, with ear pro, shooting next to a couple of other shooters wasn't an issue, similar to the HMR.
Early on we set up and did some prone shooting from a hill top. Most shots were in the 200 to 400 yd range. Full power 50gr loads were doing fine at those ranges and only required a little compensation for the wind. The optic I had on my bolt gun at the time limited me to around 400 yds because the young pups were getting covered by the reticle beyond that (I've since rectified that issue). Either way, by 400 yds, speed has decreased to the point that the wind was starting to push the 50gr bullets around and they were starting to drop a lot faster. Somewhere around 350 to 400 yds, I'd recommend moving to a 69gr to 75gr projectile. For 75s, N540 gives me some impressive speeds. Shooting hipower in 35mph winds, it cuts my drift by 30% over most of the competition. I took some 75gr Amax loads that I had worked up, but didn't end up shooting many because of the reticle issue. Instead, I switched to my Grendel upper which wears a 4.5-27x50 Athon Ares. Didn't take a lot of ammo for it, but was able to connect on a pup at 600 yds which was about as far as we could go in that particular spot. Leaving the Grendel at home next year, but I've upgraded the bolt gun to an ETR 4.5-30x56 so I'll be taking 3 different loads for it
Early on we set up and did some prone shooting from a hill top. Most shots were in the 200 to 400 yd range. Full power 50gr loads were doing fine at those ranges and only required a little compensation for the wind. The optic I had on my bolt gun at the time limited me to around 400 yds because the young pups were getting covered by the reticle beyond that (I've since rectified that issue). Either way, by 400 yds, speed has decreased to the point that the wind was starting to push the 50gr bullets around and they were starting to drop a lot faster. Somewhere around 350 to 400 yds, I'd recommend moving to a 69gr to 75gr projectile. For 75s, N540 gives me some impressive speeds. Shooting hipower in 35mph winds, it cuts my drift by 30% over most of the competition. I took some 75gr Amax loads that I had worked up, but didn't end up shooting many because of the reticle issue. Instead, I switched to my Grendel upper which wears a 4.5-27x50 Athon Ares. Didn't take a lot of ammo for it, but was able to connect on a pup at 600 yds which was about as far as we could go in that particular spot. Leaving the Grendel at home next year, but I've upgraded the bolt gun to an ETR 4.5-30x56 so I'll be taking 3 different loads for it
Some people seem to prefer the explosive effect. Seems to be a combination of spin rate + energy. The 53gr do carry much more energy downrange which probably means they remain more explosive than the 40s at a longer range.
Maybe the 40s are explosive out to 180 yards and the 53gr carrying more energy are explosive to 250 yards.
Experienced shooters might have seen a trend shooting 40s vs 53gr.
For example at 200 yards
53gr 1/9 twist at 3400 fps
40gr 1/12 twist at 3700 fps
53gr spin 9-Twist RPM = 3400 x (12/9) x 60 = 272,000 RPM at 2733fps/879 FPE
40gr spin 12-Twist RPM = 3700 x 12/12 x 60 = 222,000 RPM at 2703fps/649 FPE
On paper it looks like the 53gr spinning 50,000 RPM faster + 230 ft pounds more energy and faster velocity will be more explosive at 200 yards on a PD.
On Paper I don't see how a 40gr Vmax would be better at 200 yards or further.
Maybe less recoil but more barrel heat. On a heavy barrel + Tripod I doubt the recoil will be enough to move the barrel and tripod up enough not to see hits.
I'm thinking for 223 varmint 1/9 or 1/10 twist might be the best over all for explosive effect.
sw282
Silver $$ Contributor
l'm always interested what others shoot. For me, lts a learning experience.
Referencing 'light vs heavy'- l love 40s. My long time pd buddy Larry loves 55s. He points out he can shoot FURTHER. l have little interest in 'further'. lnside 250yds his 55s will knock chunks from a PD. My 40s will cut that same dog in HALF
Drover, I’m with you on this one and have loved the 40 gr Varmint bullets for at least 20 years in the 223! In that time I have killed a truckload of coyotes with them; more than all my other varmint rigs combined! I know slow and heavy is considered the thing these days but smacking a Varmint with a 40 starting at 3800 fps is, well, you know! That just doesn’t happen with a 69 gr hp.
Nosler shipped some 222 loaded with their 36 gr lead-free by mistake. I kept them and it’s amazing what those will do running at 3800 fps out of that diminutive cartridge! (Then there’s the 36 gr Varmint Grenades-he he he!). Inside of 300 yards you would think it was a 22-250 with 55 gr pills according to terminal performance.
If I want to go long, I bust out the 6mm Rem AI with 105 gr. or the 6.5-284.
Nosler shipped some 222 loaded with their 36 gr lead-free by mistake. I kept them and it’s amazing what those will do running at 3800 fps out of that diminutive cartridge! (Then there’s the 36 gr Varmint Grenades-he he he!). Inside of 300 yards you would think it was a 22-250 with 55 gr pills according to terminal performance.
If I want to go long, I bust out the 6mm Rem AI with 105 gr. or the 6.5-284.
alf
Silver $$ Contributor
My first prairie dog safari was in 1984. I hope to have enough experience some day to have a valid opinion.
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Thank you drover! I have about 7000 /40 gr vmax in inventory. I just built a .223 AI. That I’m fire forming on prairie dogs. It’s, I don’t have the words, assume, unbelievable or what ever. How about very satisfied when I can stack 5 in the same hole at 100 when fireforming. And yes a 40’gr does some nasty shi$ to a praire dog WHEN hit in the right spot. Feral cats don’t do well also. Done that! Killed two deer last season with 40 gr Vmax. They were close shots >100.. Brain shots.
Get that little bullet hauling as$ in a 1:12 and bring a mop and bucket to clean up the mess.
Get that little bullet hauling as$ in a 1:12 and bring a mop and bucket to clean up the mess.
Edited to add - we should use what works and appeals to each of us. The 40's are what work for me and the reason behind the original post was to explain why I like them and how they overall compare well to the 53's.
I only load my 40's to 3700/3750 fps, I am not interested in loading any faster than that, barrels are too expensive and I get great accuracy at that velocity range.
I inadvertantly made a mistake in my post # 1 -
I used Hodgdon load data for my original post, on seeing higher speeds being posted in the replies I rechecked the data and realized that the 53 gr data I had posted in my first post was for a 15" barrel pistol.
Below is a repost of JBM calculations I provided using the Nosler manual and posted on page 1 reply #5, for both the 40 and 53 gr bullets the Nosler manual shows higher velocity for both weights than the Hodgson manual does. Both of these charts were compiled using the maximum velocity listed for both bullet weights.
Using the maximum Nosler data figures as comparison the 40 gr definitely gives up some energy but it still has plenty for PD shooting out to 500 yds. Drops are almost identical for both weights and windage is near enough as to not be much of a concern.
Another plus for the 40's is that as jepp2 mentioned is the ability to see ones own hits/misses using the 40's, using 50/53 gr I begin to loose that ability.
40 gr Nosler ballistic tip @ 3867 fps
53 gr Hornday V-max @ 3540 fps
I only load my 40's to 3700/3750 fps, I am not interested in loading any faster than that, barrels are too expensive and I get great accuracy at that velocity range.
I inadvertantly made a mistake in my post # 1 -
I used Hodgdon load data for my original post, on seeing higher speeds being posted in the replies I rechecked the data and realized that the 53 gr data I had posted in my first post was for a 15" barrel pistol.
Below is a repost of JBM calculations I provided using the Nosler manual and posted on page 1 reply #5, for both the 40 and 53 gr bullets the Nosler manual shows higher velocity for both weights than the Hodgson manual does. Both of these charts were compiled using the maximum velocity listed for both bullet weights.
Using the maximum Nosler data figures as comparison the 40 gr definitely gives up some energy but it still has plenty for PD shooting out to 500 yds. Drops are almost identical for both weights and windage is near enough as to not be much of a concern.
Another plus for the 40's is that as jepp2 mentioned is the ability to see ones own hits/misses using the 40's, using 50/53 gr I begin to loose that ability.
40 gr Nosler ballistic tip @ 3867 fps
| Range | Drop | Drop | Windage | Windage | Velocity | Mach | Energy | Time | Lead | Lead |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| (yd) | (in) | (MOA) | (in) | (MOA) | (ft/s) | (none) | (ft•lbs) | (s) | (in) | (MOA) |
| Calculated Table | ||||||||||
| 0 | -2 | *** | 0 | *** | 3867.0 | 3.464 | 1327.9 | 0.000 | 0 | *** |
| 100 | -0 | -0 | 1 | 1 | 3340.0 | 2.992 | 990.7 | 0.084 | 0 | 0 |
| 200 | -2 | -1 | 4 | 2 | 2872.8 | 2.573 | 732.9 | 0.180 | 0 | 0 |
| 300 | -8 | -2 | 11 | 3 | 2451.4 | 2.196 | 533.6 | 0.293 | 0 | 0 |
| 400 | -19 | -5 | 20 | 5 | 2067.5 | 1.852 | 379.6 | 0.427 | 0 | 0 |
| 500 | -39 | -7 | 35 | 7 | 1721.8 | 1.542 | 263.3 | 0.586 | 0 | 0 |
| Range | Drop | Drop | Windage | Windage | Velocity | Mach | Energy | Time | Lead | Lead |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| (yd) | (in) | (MOA) | (in) | (MOA) | (ft/s) | (none) | (ft•lbs) | (s) | (in) | (MOA) |
| Calculated Table | ||||||||||
| 0 | -2 | *** | 0 | *** | 3540.0 | 3.171 | 1474.5 | 0.000 | 0 | *** |
| 100 | -0 | -0 | 1 | 1 | 3162.3 | 2.832 | 1176.7 | 0.090 | 0 | 0 |
| 200 | -2 | -1 | 4 | 2 | 2816.0 | 2.522 | 933.0 | 0.190 | 0 | 0 |
| 300 | -8 | -3 | 9 | 3 | 2495.2 | 2.235 | 732.6 | 0.303 | 0 | 0 |
| 400 | -20 | -5 | 16 | 4 | 2196.4 | 1.967 | 567.7 | 0.432 | 0 | 0 |
| 500 | -40 | -8 | 27 | 5 | 1918.9 | 1.719 | 433.2 | 0.578 | 0 | 0 |
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Concerning the explosive effect one thing I have noticed over the years is that if it is a wet year and the PD's and ground squirrels are eating a lot of moisture laden grasses the blow-ups will be more spectacular. In a dry year or even later in the season as the food sources begin to loose moisture the blow-ups will be less spectacular.
On twist rates I have 223's in 8, 10, and 12 twists and if there is an difference in explosive effect I have never seen anything definitive to say that one twist rate is better than the other with 40's and 50's.
I do at least 90% of my shooting within 100 - 300 yards with only occassional shots beyond those distances and the 40 grs serve me well. I have shot a few out to 500 yards and they work there also but I like hitting and beyond 300 yards there is more trigger time and less hitting particuarily with ground squirrels which are about 1/3 the size of PD's.
drover
On twist rates I have 223's in 8, 10, and 12 twists and if there is an difference in explosive effect I have never seen anything definitive to say that one twist rate is better than the other with 40's and 50's.
I do at least 90% of my shooting within 100 - 300 yards with only occassional shots beyond those distances and the 40 grs serve me well. I have shot a few out to 500 yards and they work there also but I like hitting and beyond 300 yards there is more trigger time and less hitting particuarily with ground squirrels which are about 1/3 the size of PD's.
drover
Maybe I have been lucky but I have never shot a coyote that was not a "bang flop" using a 40 gr Nosler BT. They definitely perform well above their pay grade.
I do like the Hornady 40 gr V-Max for ground squirrels since they have a slightly thinner jacket and seem to work really well on the smaller varmints.
drover
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