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Some Long Range Newbie Questions

alamo308

USAF Airborne Combat Recon: "Above All: Accuracy!"
How to decide whether to use a front rest or a bipod?
Is it just a question of seeing which the rifle prefers, or are there practical reasons?
Does using a front rest automatically put you in the 'Open' category?
If bipod, what are the considerations to decide between a harris-style or a Sinclair Gen 3-style, for example?
Any rationale for using right- or left-holds for windage, rather than adjusting sight?
 
I think he is talking about F-Class.

The front rest automatically puts you in open class.

Look up F-Class rules to see the difference between F-Open and F-T/R.

Are you in San Antonio?
 
Erik Cortina said:
I think he is talking about F-Class.
The front rest automatically puts you in open class.
Look up F-Class rules to see the difference between F-Open and F-T/R.
Are you in San Antonio?
Not bench rest.
Yes, in San Antonio.
Thanks!
 
alamo308 said:
Erik Cortina said:
I think he is talking about F-Class.
The front rest automatically puts you in open class.
Look up F-Class rules to see the difference between F-Open and F-T/R.
Are you in San Antonio?
Not bench rest.
Yes, in San Antonio.
Thanks!

He must be from San Antonio because he didn't pay attention in class. We covered this:

F-TR: .223 or .308, bipod or sling or both, maximum weight 8.25 kilos, 18.18 pounds including everything that comes up with the rifle when lifted. More difficult to score high and get a high classification.

F-Open: Any caliber .35 and under goes. Bipod optional/ front rest usually prefered. Weight of rifle at 10 kilos or 22 pounds, anything that comes up with the rifle when lifted. Front end must be no wider than 3 inches. Easier to get high score; fast way to upper classifications. Very competitive at the high end.
 
bayou shooter said:
He must be from San Antonio because he didn't pay attention in class. We covered this:

F-TR: .223 or .308, bipod or sling or both, maximum weight 8.25 kilos, 18.18 pounds including everything that comes up with the rifle when lifted. More difficult to score high and get a high classification.

F-Open: Any caliber .35 and under goes. Bipod optional/ front rest usually prefered. Weight of rifle at 10 kilos or 22 pounds, anything that comes up with the rifle when lifted. Front end must be no wider than 3 inches. Easier to get high score; fast way to upper classifications. Very competitive at the high end.
Yep, I missed the part about "no front rest" in F-TR.

But I must be from San Antonio because I have the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.
;)
 
alamo308 said:
How to decide whether to use a front rest or a bipod?
Is it just a question of seeing which the rifle prefers, or are there practical reasons?
Does using a front rest automatically put you in the 'Open' category?
If bipod, what are the considerations to decide between a harris-style or a Sinclair Gen 3-style, for example?
Any rationale for using right- or left-holds for windage, rather than adjusting sight?

Use a bipod in TR, rest in Open. You can use a bipod in Open if you like, but you'll find it puts you at a disadvantage. You cannot use a rest in TR.
The F class style bipods look weird for a reason - it's because they're generally better than the standard harris. Opinons vary as to which one is best. Watch the weight, because it counts towards your rifle limit.

As far as windage goes, what I do is adjust the knobs for a baseline wind with my sighters, and hold off from there. Any time you turn the knobs, there is a small chance you'll get dumb and turn them the wrong way or the wrong amount, and doing this in the middle of a relay is distracting to me. So I set them and forget them. This is easier to do with a high magnification scope (25x or more at 600). When I shoot service rifles (in regular high power), I adjust sights for every shot - I'm just not good enough to hold off a small amount with irons. I'm sure others have different ways, and they may even be better. I haven't cracked the high master level yet, so there is room for improvement in my technique.
 
"He must be from San Antonio because he didn't pay attention in class. We covered this:"

Why is it that you have to be such a dick to new posters?
 
Medic505 said:
"He must be from San Antonio because he didn't pay attention in class. We covered this:"

Why is it that you have to be such a dick to new posters?
+1
 
alamo308 said:
Yep, I missed the part about "no front rest" in F-TR.

But I must be from San Antonio because I have the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.
;)

I love your sense of humor. After initially reading your question, I made a note to spend a little more time to cover the differences (and similarities) between F-Open and F-TR in the class, for the next time. In retrospect I do remember talking about the calibers and the weights but perhaps I did not make the front support differences as clearl as I should have.

As for your question about adjusting sights as opposed to holding off, Damoncali gave a good explanation of his rationale, but allow me to present some of my thoughts.

In Service Rifle and Match Rifle, where you are using peep sights, most shooters will adjust their sights before each shot, if warranted. When I shot such sights I was never good enough to be able to favor one side or the other with the peeps and as my eyesight faded, it was all I could do to try to get a consistent picture of the aiming black in the front sight, let alone favor.

When it comes to riflescopes, the environment changes. At this point, it really becomes a game of what you are comfortable with and what you are used to. When I started in F-class, I was fiddling with my scope windage for virtually every shot. I didn't know better and there were no classes or books or anything. After a few matches and discovering a propensity for winding the scope the wrong way, I came to the realization that holding off during a string was a much better idea. So, I would use my sighters adjusting the windage in my scope and then go from there. That served me fine for a while but I still had to adjust the scope in mid string and the cries of "arghh," and "for crying out loud" were still there when I discovered that I had wound the scope the wrong way and instead of punching the expected 10 or X, I got a 7 the other way.

In many (most) of the big matches, like the Nationals and Worlds, there are only two sighters after the first match and in some cases, even the first match has only two sighters following a blow off period. So what I have been doing for the last several years is to take 4 or 5 sighters on the first string and only 2 on subsequent strings. I use the sighters to guage the wind. There have been many times where my 2 sighters were an 8 and a 9 or two 8s or worse, and the first shot for record was a 10 or an X, without ever touching the scope.

I don't have a problem holding the edge of the black or even the 6 ring, but even I have limits. At last month's Texas Long Range state match, I discovered during the first string that I was holding the edge of the frame more often than not and I even had to hold off the frame a few times. That was too much for my comfort. So for subsequent strings I added 2 MOA on windage and then held between 8 and X for the rest of the match. The wind was always coming from the same direction and I never detected it to go below my need for 2 MOA. In other words, I never needed to hold on the other side of the X. So for that instance, putting in 2MOA on the scope was fine, but I had to monitor the flags constantly, before and after every shot.

Now, a lot of people like to translate the appearance of the flag to a velocity measured in miles per hour and then convert that to MOAs and either click or hold off accordingly. The way I do it is translate the mirage flow or the flag position into rings; "that flag angle looks like an 8-ring to me." This is where I use my sighters to confirm or infirm my suspicions about the wind and its effect on my bullets and go from there. I realize it's not scientific and a lot of it is experience, but it works for me. I know some people do it with lines, but they are more precise than I am.

When the conditions are what I expect, I can shoot very quickly and just make a slight adjustment on the hold for each shot; something I could never do dialing the scope and I would probably dial the wrong way at some point and watch points evaporate.
 
bayou shooter said:
When the conditions are what I expect, I can shoot very quickly and just make a slight adjustment on the hold for each shot; something I could never do dialing the scope and I would probably dial the wrong way at some point and watch points evaporate.

Thank you for that expanded response.

Yes, I benefited from Demoncali's rationale. Enough to feel comfortable with windage holdoffs rather than scope adjustments. The exercise of spotting and calling for the expert shooter was extremely beneficial, and a real confidence builder.

But I also wanted to hear from other experienced shooters for their rationale as well, for either comparison or contrast. I too was concerned about going the wrong way on the dial; done it in small-bore, but with unlimited sighters, so I recovered quickly with no wrong-dial induced 7s or 8s. (And wondered if anybody else ever did the same thing.)

For the monthly long-range practice matches, are they unlimited sighters for the first string, and two sighters for the following strings?
 
The registered matches follow the NRA rules which allow for unlimited sighters for all three 20-shot strings of the match. The abbreviated non-registered summer format matches are unlimited and then 2 sighters for the second and third of the 15-shot strings.
 
Denys,

Your post, above which included this sentence, "As for your question about adjusting sights as opposed to holding off, Damoncali gave a good explanation of his rationale, but allow me to present some of my thoughts."

Thank you for your concise, yet detailed explanation for dealing with the wind. I am now getting into that stage of shooting, and really appreciate what you shared with us.

Nando
 
Thanks for the kind words, Nando. I'm always happy to discuss the intricate aspects of competition, as I practice and understand them. If I can help newcomers in any way explaining some concepts and providing a rationale behind them, I'm happy to do it.

I will point out that my understanding may be faulty or even dead wrong, so I'm always happy to be corrected and to learn from that.
 

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