.22-250 cases difficult to chamber....

[6MMsteve]

Where is FGuffey when you need him, Guffey please comment and get this topic on track

 

[lhsako]

ireload2 is correct, you did not specify what die you are using in your original post. Specifically, what die are you using? dedogs

Naturally i'm getting a FL die. what brand/ style do all of you like?

 

[LHSmith]

Naturally i'm getting a FL die. what brand/ style do all of you like?

I like the machining quality of the Redding, RCBS, Hornady New Dimension is good, not too keen on Lee. FWIW-just in case you might think it may work- I would stay away from the Forster Bushing Bump Neck Sizer.....a case needs body support to bump the shoulder without distorting the body diameter.

 

[LHSmith]

When you get through then explain how the shoulder gets blown forward enough to make chambering hard because I have never seen it. Hard chambering always results from something wrong with the rifle or poor sizing technique- meaning you squeezed the case body enough to move the shoulder forward.

The chamber section of the barrel expands under pressure. Load to the upper pressure limits, as most often done in competition because that's where the best accuracy is realized, and this becomes very evident. When you have a proven BR rifle using custom dies specifically designed for your chamber and anneal the cases regularly, it is definitely not due to the rifle or sizing technique.

 

[fguffey]

Other than needing FL sized/shoulder bumped, any thought?

I will assume you are assuming you have the perfect chamber. Before I gave up on neck sizing I would index the cases and or check the fired cases for run out that could be caused by a chamber that is not round. And then there is neck sizing with a neck sizing die and there is neck sizing with a full length sizing die.

I am not the reloader that has to have dies with a pedigree, I have a basic understanding of the incline plane when it comes to threads. I have no problem adjusting the die to the shell holder with a feeler gage. Rational: I never got into that 'bump' thing. When I want to avoid sizing the case and shortening the distance from the shoulder to the case head I adjust the die. I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case; and yes the Redding Competition shell holders are nice but not absolutely necessary, at $50.00 a set I do not find them that nice and or necessary.

I do have one set; it is the #6 set, three of the shell holders are off by .001" each, for me? Not a problem I do not use them but I have them JIC. I paid $5.00 for the set.

F. Guffey

 

[ireload2]

If what you claim happens you would have extraction problems. Most of us never have extraction problems except when the chamber finish is poor and the pressure is very high. I think you need to dig out your calculator and calculate how large your chamber really expands because it is a very small number.
If you have a good chamber finish and you commonly have that problem I think it is more of a overload or imagination issue. If you do not understand that the loading die can bulge the case forward you might want to do a little more investigation. It definitely can be caused by sizing technique and I can duplicate it on request. I have even used the technique to bulge shoulders forward to make short brass a better fit in a chamber.

The chamber section of the barrel expands under pressure. Load to the upper pressure limits, as most often done in competition because that's where the best accuracy is realized, and this becomes very evident. When you have a proven BR rifle using custom dies specifically designed for your chamber and anneal the cases regularly, it is definitely not due to the rifle or sizing technique.

 

[dkhunt14]

There is no doubt the chamber swells when a cartridge is fired. If not they couldn't measure chamber pressure with a strain Guage. There is another problem with putting tight brass into a chamber. It doesn't get looser when fired. I can shoot warmer loads with sized brass and the gun will cycle better. What Lamar is saying is pretty much the way match shooters shoot. Usually a BR gun is more accurate in the upper end of a powder node. Pressure makes for a cleaner burn. I am not saying load at unsafe pressures.

Also brass needs to be able to expand and spring back after fired. It is tight there is no room for to expand and rebound. Matt

 

[CaptainMal]

You adjust a sizing die with the fired case. Forget that stuff about the shell holder.

You MUST have a the headspace gauge and tool from either Sinclair or Hornady. USING it you measure the size, at the shoulder, of the fired case. Now, through trial, place that case in a sizing die and adjust it so the headspace size is from .001-.003" LESS than the fired case.

Simple. Done. Silly discussion over.

 

[fguffey]

You adjust a sizing die with the fired case. Forget that stuff about the shell holder.

You MUST have a the headspace gauge and tool from either Sinclair or Hornady. USING it you measure the size, at the shoulder, of the fired case. Now, through trial, place that case in a sizing die and adjust it so the headspace size is from .001-.003" LESS than the fired case.

Simple. Done. Silly discussion over.

Silly? The case does not have head space and Hornady/Sinclair has a comparator. As silly as it may seem I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head.

I believe reloaders have an infatuation with head space.

F. Guffey

 

[dedogs]

When I want to avoid sizing the case and shortening the distance from the shoulder to the case head I adjust the die

Fguffey, you have stated repeatedly on this forum that you cannot "bump" the shoulder on a case. You also have mentioned many times the need to know the dimension of a case from the head to the datum line. Could you please explain in detail how you personally measure such a dimension. dedogs

 

[dedogs]

believe reloaders have an infatuation with head space.

I believe reloaders here have an infatuation with accuracy and adjusting the length of our cases is one way we achieve this goal. dedogs

 

[SheepDog]

1. A headspace gauge will only tell you if the camber is too short or too long.
2. A comparator will give you an approximation of your chambers actual length.
3. Your fired case will be shorter than the chamber it was fired from unless you are over pressuring the gun.

I used to get case head separations and body ("J" splits) in my 03A3 until I started partial neck sizing only, using a neck sizing die. Since I started neck sizing some 40 years ago I have never needed to full length size even one of my cases and I have not lost a case that was not originally a military round using corrosive (mercury based) primers. The chamber in this rifle still measures within the "go" and "no go" gauge tolerance. It is larger in diameter than most chambers from the base to the throat. As the brass swells out it pulls metal from both the body and base if it is fully resized and that caused the "J" splits and case head separations.

 

[dkhunt14]

1. A headspace gauge will only tell you if the camber is too short or too long.
2. A comparator will give you an approximation of your chambers actual length.
3. Your fired case will be shorter than the chamber it was fired from unless you are over pressuring the gun.

I used to get case head separations and body ("J" splits) in my 03A3 until I started partial neck sizing only, using a neck sizing die. Since I started neck sizing some 40 years ago I have never needed to full length size even one of my cases and I have not lost a case that was not originally a military round using corrosive (mercury based) primers. The chamber in this rifle still measures within the "go" and "no go" gauge tolerance. It is larger in diameter than most chambers from the base to the throat. As the brass swells out it pulls metal from both the body and base if it is fully resized and that caused the "J" splits and case head separations.

You answered your own question, the chamber is larger then most. It works that way also when you make the chamber smaller, now you will have extraction problems. Most military weapons were made with larger chambers so they will function in bad conditions. They need to fire without extraction problems in the heat of battle. Matt

 

[SheepDog]

As long as the case goes into the chamber easily and the pressures are reasonable for your gun the case will extract easily. When you push pressures higher than your gun can handle the chamber can over expand and the brass will expand with it. The brass can only spring back so much and if the chamber pressure is too high it will cause hard extraction. It doesn't matter if the chamber is large or small there is only one way the brass can grow enough to be larger than the chamber. If it fits going in, it will fit coming out unless the pressure is too high for that load in that gun.

 

[dkhunt14]

As long as the case goes into the chamber easily and the pressures are reasonable for your gun the case will extract easily. When you push pressures higher than your gun can handle the chamber can over expand and the brass will expand with it. The brass can only spring back so much and if the chamber pressure is too high it will cause hard extraction. It doesn't matter if the chamber is large or small there is only one way the brass can grow enough to be larger than the chamber. If it fits going in, it will fit coming out unless the pressure is too high for that load in that gun.

Go and read Boyd and my response on the thread about sticky bolt on the main forum. This exists and a lot of match shooters have ran into it. It happens without overpressure. Matt

 

[dedogs]

I believe reloaders here have an infatuation with accuracy

I also believe I'm on guffey's ignore list. dedogs

 

[tcob68]

What are everyone's thoughts and opinions on the resizing method of stripping the bolt, then adjusting the fl sizing die down until you only feel resistance on the last half of the down stroke of the bolt handle?

 

[LHSmith]

What are everyone's thoughts and opinions on the resizing method of stripping the bolt, then adjusting the fl sizing die down until you only feel resistance on the last half of the down stroke of the bolt handle?

Yes that is the best method ,but the cartridge headspace should also be measured and noted, you still have an ejector spring that could influence the "feel" method and other factors.
Edit- for Benchrest applications many will size to where the bolt falls almost all the way down freely which is about 0.001" H/S clearance

 

[LHSmith]

If what you claim happens you would have extraction problems. Most of us never have extraction problems except when the chamber finish is poor and the pressure is very high. I think you need to dig out your calculator and calculate how large your chamber really expands because it is a very small number.
If you have a good chamber finish and you commonly have that problem I think it is more of a overload or imagination issue. If you do not understand that the loading die can bulge the case forward you might want to do a little more investigation. It definitely can be caused by sizing technique and I can duplicate it on request. I have even used the technique to bulge shoulders forward to make short brass a better fit in a chamber.

Also, do not discount the effect of high pressure on the barrel tenon/ receiver thread joint and action stretch which elongates in the other axis from the outward chamber wall expansion. True the amount is very small, but it does not take much interference between brass and chamber to require more than necessary force to close the bolt. I believe some reloaders become used to harder than necessary bolt close because of the FP spring effect helping to disguise the interference.
I also load my non-competition rifles in the upper nodes ( generally with-in a grain of maximum listed load found in a published manual---after incremental work-up) because that is where I find best accuracy and I want as much performance as that chambering can offer. In doing so, I have found early on in my reloading career, that NS'ing is an invitation to problems that will crop up at the worst times, is not conducive to hunting environments ( dust and dirt preventing chambering) and is hard on lug surfaces ( I only learned about lubing bolts after starting BR comp).
As far as attempting to NS with a FL die- who advocates that? I looked through all the current reload manuals, Sierra, Hornady, Berger, Nosler, Speer and not one mentions anything about "partial resizing". Fact is in order to push the shoulder back (i.e. "bump") the case body must be fully supported - or else you will bulge the case at the shoulder/ body junction---it may be slight, but it will cause erratic chambering effort.....any attempts to use a FL die other than it's intended purpose is going to cause problems.

 

[Texas10]

I shoot a 22-250 Savage, 8 twist, 28 inch barrel, match chamber. I have experienced same difficulty in chambering as you as I prefer to neck size only. In my 223, I have never had to FL size my brass. The 22-250 is a different animal in this regard and I have to FL size about every 3 loading. I use the Lee neck sizing die and have recently switched out my Lee FL die to the RCBS FL Competition die for FL sizing.

WHY? well, stupid me....I pulled out my dial indicator for the first time in 20 some years and began checking neck run out. The Lee was producing 3 to 5 thou run out in the necks, and loading added a couple more. So it occurred to me that maybe that was the reason for the flyers in my groups.

So I shoot the brass until it feels a bit tight in chambering, which I check before starting the loading process and sort the tight from the acceptable brass. I FL size those pieces only and have the die set to only move the shoulder back one to one and a half thou. Just enough to chamber easily.

Some would ask, why neck size instead of FL sizing? The answer is that it works the brass less in the neck area where all your bullet grip is generated, and following this same reasoning, brass will age harden when cold worked. So working the neck TWICE using a FL die, and then storing the brass for a period of time may result in inconsistent neck tension. If you load some brass that has set for a month after sizing and mix in some that has set only a few hours, you may find your groups splattering all over the target, with no apparent reason.

Back at the range I compared loads using the Lee dies and the RCBS which produce loaded brass with less than one thou run out. The difference was readily apparent on the target. Less neck runout and consistent neck tension makes for tighter groups. DUH!