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Soft jam and neck tension, how do they relate, and how much neck tension before your starting to go further in

I’ve shot more than 1000 rounds at .025 beyond touch, and while I appreciate the background information on how this all got started the bottom line is that all we need is a bushing die without a expander ball, a few different size bushings and a base to ogive comparator. If the bullet moves when cycling than use a smaller size bushing until it doesn’t move anymore.
It’s pretty basic stuff
 
It depends on how much your trying to jamb it....
Some guys try to load well into the lands, the farther you try to push into the lands, the more tension you need to keep the bullet from moving.
And that is the question at hand
How much neck tension do you need to jam.
I should had asked the original question like that.
But for practical purposes. Trail and error with a dummy round will give me the answer.
I need to get a bushing set
 
I’ve shot more than 1000 rounds at .025 beyond touch, and while I appreciate the background information on how this all got started the bottom line is that all we need is a bushing die without a expander ball, a few different size bushings and a base to ogive comparator. If the bullet moves when cycling than use a smaller size bushing until it doesn’t move anymore.
It’s pretty basic stuff
A couple of additional things: How far into the rifling you can seat without the bullet being moved as the round is chambered also depends on the shape of the bullet. At some point, if you seat far enough into the rifling, no matter what the neck tension the bullet will move.
 
I’ve shot more than 1000 rounds at .025 beyond touch, and while I appreciate the background information on how this all got started the bottom line is that all we need is a bushing die without a expander ball, a few different size bushings and a base to ogive comparator. If the bullet moves when cycling than use a smaller size bushing until it doesn’t move anymore.
It’s pretty basic stuff
Nope, to simple and includes common sense. Will never work for many.
 
I’ve shot more than 1000 rounds at .025 beyond touch, and while I appreciate the background information on how this all got started the bottom line is that all we need is a bushing die without a expander ball, a few different size bushings and a base to ogive comparator. If the bullet moves when cycling than use a smaller size bushing until it doesn’t move anymore.
It’s pretty basic stuff
That exactly, sums it up.
So in this case, what bushing size do you need for a .272 chamber to jam say .020 or more will a. 68g Berber?
 
The relation between neck tension (difference in diameter) and how far your can seat into the rifling (past touch) is easy to determine using dummy rounds.

Use cases that are in the exact condition that they would be if you are loading them, sized with different bushings or mandrels. Measure them as loaded with the bullets seated long, and measure them after chambering. If they are shorter after chambering, that length the bullets were pushed back to is old school jam.

I don't anneal, but what I see is the more neck tension the deeper I can seat without the bullet being moved as a round is chambered.

A lot of the confusion is caused because fellows use words without knowing their original meanings.

Back in the day, short range group shooters, who load at the range. Used jam as a reference for where they were seating bullets. ( some probably still do) They would load a round (Remember they were at the range and could chamber it at the line during a firing period.) Measure its length, chamber it, remove it and if it was shorter, that length was jam. Notice, the word was used as a noun. It was a loaded length (a measurement) that a specific bullet would be pushed back to when loaded long, with the case in the same condition that it would be when loaded for a match, same powder fouling, same neck tension. No one was annealing. When asked where they were seating, they would say something like, six off jam, meaning six thousandths shorter than the length that the bullet had been pushed back to in the test. That length was referred to as jam.

If you use a dummy round you eliminate the risk of powder being dumped in the action if the bullet sticks in the barrel as you attempt to extract the round.

I have never heard soft jam, but decades back a prominent high powder shooter explained what that long range shooters in that sport, who were shooting prone with bolt rifles called soft seating. Basically it involved loading long, with light neck tension so that the bullet would be pushed back a little as the round was chambered.

One thing that you did not tell us was if you are satisfied with the accuracy that you are getting, but your question might indicate that you are looking for improvement.

One thing that does not get mentioned much in internet discussions is that different powders "like" different amounts of neck tension. In the 6BRA world, Varget does well with moderate neck tension, while H4895 likes more. In short range group, 133 would prefer .004 while LT32 would be happy with .0015 or so. The obvious way to determine optimal neck tension is to shoot your best load with different tensions.

My suggestion is that you do your own testing, and believe your targets.
I read this again and, understand better. I did not know this about different powders liking different neck tensions. That's some knowledge to have in the grand scheme of things. You asked about accuracy I was getting. Yeah, I'm trying to get my my mid .1s to true Zeros. I mean true Zeros. Iv shot lots of .2s and .17s , .16s ect, ect. At home now. I'm using vv 133 aswell..
I shoot every week at home. But when I Go shoot these days. I shoot 20 or 25 rounds. Trying to cut back on numbers I'm sending down my barrel. I got a good one now and it's showing some promise. Like today I shot 18 rounds 30.1 30.2 , 30.3, 30.4 , 30.5, 30.6, 30.7, 30.8. 3 shot groups.
The groups from previous session were better.
Tested 29 to 30 and 30 shot. .153
29.7. Was .2 29.8 was .19. 29.9 was .17 and 30 was .150 on the dot.
 
wrt how much interference fit is required before the lands will/won't push a bullet into the case...

for my 6BR (10x fired lapua brass, scenar-l 105 seated .075 long)

with a .244 mandrel i can easily move a seated bullet deeper / shallower by finger. a .2435 mandrel gives me enough interference fit i can close the bolt on a seated round and get a consistent seating depth reading without the comparator influencing it. a .243 mandrel still shows the lands seat the bullet deeper but at a less consistent seating depth. i haven't tested .2425.

i would expect the math above to change with: number of firings on brass, neck length/bearing surface, seating depth, caliber, bullet/brass vendor....
 
Your life will get a lot easier if you simply determine the 'T.P.' (touch point) for a particular bullet, record that seating stem length and then move the bullet in/out from there. Do this using the stripped bolt or 'Wheeler Method'....forget using split necks or any other sort of monkey motion method.

If you start your load work by making the seating stem significantly shorter than the T.P., you only have one direction to go to find a seating depth your gun likes. I start with a bushing at least .004 smaller than the necks measure across the base area of the bullet when seated.

Good shootin'. -Al
 
^^^^^^^^
Your life will get a lot easier if you simply determine the 'T.P.' (touch point) for a particular bullet, record that seating stem length and then move the bullet in/out from there. Do this using the stripped bolt or 'Wheeler Method'....forget using split necks or any other sort of monkey motion method.

If you start your load work by making the seating stem significantly shorter than the T.P., you only have one direction to go to find a seating depth your gun likes. I start with a bushing at least .004 smaller than the necks measure across the base area of the bullet when seated.

Good shootin'. -Al
^^^^^^^^^^^^
and there you have the short answer you were looking for in a concise package????
stan
 
Your life will get a lot easier if you simply determine the 'T.P.' (touch point) for a particular bullet, record that seating stem length and then move the bullet in/out from there. Do this using the stripped bolt or 'Wheeler Method'....forget using split necks or any other sort of monkey motion method.

If you start your load work by making the seating stem significantly shorter than the T.P., you only have one direction to go to find a seating depth your gun likes. I start with a bushing at least .004 smaller than the necks measure across the base area of the bullet when seated.

Good shootin'. -Al

I've been using the split neck for 25 years. It works better than anything I've ever tried including the "Wheeler method" . It's not monkey motion.
 
For six mm, what's a one of the best bushing kits to buy? I have a few but the numbers are fading and after reading this stuff. I want to get a good set
 

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