So, do donuts matter... IF ?

[Mikemci]

Just click on a user's name and then click on ignore.

Done.

 

[joshb]

Awww. Put him on ignore and you might miss the day he finally explains something. I load my bullets in front of the donut. I understand some guys ream them out.

 

[T-shooter]

It's not always possible to seat in front of the donut if you have one depending on the bullet and chamber that you are using. In my rifle, seating the 208g A-Max for a .025" jump where it's the most accurate, the bearing surface goes well past the shoulder/neck junction. The Berger 200.20x does the best (for me) seated just touching the lands and the rear is well in front of any donuts. I have never detected any internal donuts. I full length resize each time with a maximum of .001" neck setback.

 

[Dgd6mm]

Yes, ogive location does make a difference depending on the length of your throat.

 

[fguffey]

The donut hasn’t been an issue and the 284 has noticable donuts.

Rusty, 'The dreaded donut' thread has made its appearance on this forum got years, I started by saying I create donuts when I form cases, I said I have chambers that, by design, form donuts when fired and I said I have chambers that have never formed a donut. And reloaders declare they can move the shoulder back and they have some kind of a fancy die that can bump the shoulder back and as always I alienate them by saying it is impossible to move and or bump the shoulder back with a die that has case body support.

I do not agree with the advise given as in 'just ignore the donut and use short bullets', when I pull the trigger I want all of that hot, high pressure metal cutting gas to exit the case, I do not want a vortex at the donut.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Donuts also matter if you FL size your necks.
This, because you bring donut brass into neck tension.

That makes absolutely no sense, no one can measure tension, again there are two new bullet seaters available, both measure in pounds, one of the manufacturers listed weight in deviation as in .001" deflection is equal to 1 pound. And for years I claimed I have tension gages, I said none of my tension gages measured tensions, all of my tension gages are calibrated in pounds.

F. Guffey

 

[WillyTP]

That makes absolutely no sense,

F. Guffey

Now that is the pot calling the kettle black!!!

 

[fguffey]

Now that is the pot calling the kettle black!!!

WillyTP, you claim you have one standard you apply to all members; You explain the part that makes sense to you, I do not have a tension gage that is marked off in tensions, no one on this forum has a conversion for tensions to pounds. Again, I have deflection gages, and I have gages that are marked off in pounds, what I do not have is a gage that is marked off in tensions.

I use bullet hold.

F. Guffey

 

[Richard Coody]

WillyTP, you claim you have one standard you apply to all members; You explain the part that makes sense to you, I do not have a tension gage that is marked off in tensions, no one on this forum has a conversion for tensions to pounds. Again, I have deflection gages, and I have gages that are marked off in pounds, what I do not have is a gage that is marked off in tensions.

I use bullet hold.

F. Guffey

In physics, tension, as a transmitted force, as an action-reaction pair of forces, or as a restoring force, may be a force and has the units of force measured in newtons (or sometimes pounds-force).

 

[foxguy]

I only shoot 6br/BRA and straight 284, as recommended to me at the outset of putting my rifles together is to have enough freebore to keep bearing surface of bullet above donut area. The donut hasn’t been an issue and the 284 has noticable donuts.

Please share what bullets you are using. I have been loading 6mm BR using an 80 gr flat based bullet and it's preferred seating depth in my rifle put's it into the dounut. I am going to look for 80-90 gr bullets with an boat tail to see if I can get a good Load and stay above the donut area.

thanks

 

[WillyTP]

WillyTP, you claim you have one standard you apply to all members; You explain the part that makes sense to you, I do not have a tension gage that is marked off in tensions, no one on this forum has a conversion for tensions to pounds. Again, I have deflection gages, and I have gages that are marked off in pounds, what I do not have is a gage that is marked off in tensions.

I use bullet hold.

F. Guffey

Where did you get I have standards for members from my post? What are you reading? You haven’t had a single post out of 1752 make sense and you call someone else out for not making sense?

I have shoes. Some shoes make me taller, yet no one can measure it. I have shoes that protect me, shoemakers should be able to do both, but I’M THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN BE TALLER AND PROTECTED......other people that wear shoes wear them wrong. They wear the wrong size as I’M THE ONLY ONE THAT KNOWS EVERYONE’S SIZE AND YOUR ALL WRONG,blah blah blah

 

[Someoldguy]

Awww. Put him on ignore and you might miss the day he finally explains something.

I'm convinced none of us will live that long.

 

[KenOath]

Please share what bullets you are using. I have been loading 6mm BR using an 80 gr flat based bullet and it's preferred seating depth in my rifle put's it into the dounut. I am going to look for 80-90 gr bullets with an boat tail to see if I can get a good Load and stay above the donut area.

thanks

I had the BR chambered for the heavies 103 to 107gn bullets with a freebore of 104 to 110. The 284 shoots the 180gn bullets with a freebore of .230”.

Cheers Rushty

 

[LHSmith]

has

I do not agree with the advise given as in 'just ignore the donut and use short bullets', when I pull the trigger I want all of that hot, high pressure metal cutting gas to exit the case, I do not want a vortex at the donut.

F. Guffey

All bottleneck cases create a "vortex" ........look up the definition. You are trying to imply the theory once called turbulence point (TP) negatively affects performance. IME it has no impact on accuracy in shortrange BR (out to 300 yards). For LR BR it is academic since the bullets used invariably are seated in the area where donuts are created thus affecting neck TENSION and chamber neck clearance. FWIW, I cannot find "TP" (as it relates to interior ballistics) on a google search....nor mentioned in current reloading manuals. Perhaps the theory has fallen out of favor?

 

[Curious]

prove that the subtle restriction imparted by a formed donut in reasonable case forming (6 mm to 30 or .224 to 6mm) affects accuracy due to impeding the gas flow at the neck. And don't quote some manufacturer(s) who use this unproven theory as part of their advertizing.

 

[LHSmith]

That vid does not tell me anything. What case? what was done to the case to get donuts? What bullets and how deep where they seated?
Re-read my post- I said accuracy affected by the donuts impeding gas flow. His accuracy improvement can easily be a result of eliminating the donuts interference on bullet tension......but I have never seen any accuracy degradation from formed donuts that were well away from the seated bullet.

 

[chop house]

eliminating the donuts interference on bullet tension

i tend to agree. i had to rewind a couple times to just catch that he was seating a mere0.030" ahead of the donut. that isn't what i had in mind when i posed the question. perhaps now the question has morphed into 'how close can you seat to the donut before it impacts accuracy'. the donuts themselves are not necessarily localized, abrupt, precisely positioned, or consistent.

and i had just almost posted, well the votes are in and we have a consensus....

 

[Curious]

That vid does not tell me anything. What case? what was done to the case to get donuts? What bullets and how deep where they seated?
Re-read my post- I said accuracy affected by the donuts impeding gas flow. His accuracy improvement can easily be a result of eliminating the donuts interference on bullet tension......but I have never seen any accuracy degradation from formed donuts that were well away from the seated bullet.

The case was a 223 AI, the bullets were 75gr Amax and seated 0.030" above/clear of the donut as the video clearly states.

 

[fguffey]

i posed the question. perhaps now the question has morphed into 'how close can you seat to the donut before it impacts accuracy'

Happens ever time, I am just guessing but if I wanted to even the flow/exit of the gas from the case I would leave the restriction and treat it as though it was an orifice like an A/C expansion valve or a metering devise in a carburetor etc.

And as always no one measure before and again after, and no one ask about the 'spike'. When I pull the trigger I want all of that gas to get out and I do not want anything slowing down the exit.

chop house, I do not agree with the philosophy applying the leaver policy when it comes to donuts. I have applied the 'leaver policy' to rifles I have purchased but I purchased the rifles for the sum of the parts but after a trip to the range I applied the leaver policy I left-er the way I founder; because there was not much I could do to improve accuracy.

There was an auction for a rifle that made its way around the reloading forums, it was so ugly they had a field day. I wanted the parts but could not believe anyone could build a rifle that ugly without knowing what he was doing. I paid $120.00 for the rifle, I took it to the range with 100 rounds of 10 different loads etc. the scope, rings and mount cost more than the rifle. After test firing the rifle I applied the 'leaver policy' because there was nothing I could do to improve on the accuracy. I could not believe the front stock was the recoil lug, and then? in my opinion it got better.

F. Guffey