SMT accuracy test, Camp Atterbury

[Zilla]

Can I challenge a shot on an E-Target?

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Keith, I understand you hate E Targets and I doubt anything could be done to change your mind. That's to bad. I know people want to watch all the spotters to read wind, which is the biggest complaint of E Targets. It is one tool in the tool box that gets taken away, but for all the gain, it is worth it. Nit picking about an 1/8 inch when the acoustical center is off slightly simply means you do not understand how they work. It is true you are shooting at a target that is about 3 feet in front of the paper. It MAY not be centered perfectly, but that does not mean they are not accurate.

Bob,

I think you misinterpret my intent. I know that E-targets are the future. It is as simple as handwriting on the wall. I'm not the "Death before E-targets" type. I have seen enough evidence that the 4 or 5 mic systems are not up to the task of really important things like big matches and national records. I don't want to see anyone gain or lose position in a match because of the random error.

I could care less if the accoustic center is perfectly positioned over the center of the paper. I think I've been clear on the point, but I write in circles...

My concern revolves solely on three items:

1) Random error on the position of the shot impact. I shoot at least monthly on 4 mic SMT's, so I might have seen a thing or two...

2) Making the game different/easier than it is. The darn thing will give you a sight correction, and zoom in to the point where you can see the exact point of (assumed) impact. Similarly, ripping 20 shots off in 1-2 minutes belongs to a different game (Benchrest).

I made suggestions to the NRA about rules changes with the following intent:
Either;
Determine without reasonable doubt that the systems NEVER mis-score shots
OR
Document any accuracy problems in a way that all of the supposition and BS will be placed aside and the manufacturers find themselves making the first statement true.

A search of this site will find what I proposed.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

2) Making the game different/easier than it is. The darn thing will give you a sight correction, and zoom in to the point where you can see the exact point of (assumed) impact. Similarly, ripping 20 shots off in 1-2 minutes belongs to a different game (Benchrest).

This is definitely a problem. Our local club does nothing to mitigate this, though the system supports it.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

This is definitely a problem. Our local club does nothing to mitigate this, though the system supports it.

I also forgot to mention the fact that the system plots for you. Nobody can do that for you when you shoot a paper target.

 

[Jay Christopherson]

I also forgot to mention the fact that the system plots for you. Nobody can do that for you when you shoot a paper target.

Yep, they should be showing nothing except the last shot until the string is complete. Experience tells me that has to be a simple update/modification to add that option.

 

[Bob Sebold]

David, Yes you can challenge a shot. Did it, lost. The shot was there. I went down to look.

Keith, Plotting is not my bag, waste of time, for me. I agree that shooting fast with no limit is a different sport entirely. I would not want to see that at all. That is why we have a 7 second delay. When we were first looking at getting these targets, it was considered a good idea to see if it would count all shots put down as fast as possible. After a few sighters, I was timed in 43 seconds, 20 rds and 200 17X. That was shortly after David set that record. Granted no wind, but way to easy.

That's the wrong game for me. I would not want to shoot a match like that. That is not, however, what we do. Everybody in F class gets a 7 second delay before the shot or score is displayed.

 

[243Mendoza]

Yep, they should be showing nothing except the last shot until the string is complete. Experience tells me that has to be a simple update/modification to add that option.

I can't see why we need to handicap new technology to old technology. It would be similar to limit the horseless carriage to the the same speed as horses. Or you can't have muzzle velocity of smokeless powder cartridges faster than muzzle loaders.

But I do agree with some delay in readout since wind reading is a skill that is part of highpower competition. But it should be greater than 7 sec...more like 30 sec. ( that should raise blood pressure of some people

 

[243Mendoza]

... After a few sighters, I was timed in 43 seconds, 20 rds and 200 17X....

Wow, you may be eligible for rattle battle and certainly for rapid fire in NMC matches!

 

[243Mendoza]

By definition, with normally distributed data, +/- 1 standard deviation is expected to cover 67% of the data, +/- 2 is 95%, and +/- 3 is 99%.

So, if you are told an SD, then you must expect 19 of every 20 data points are within an extreme spread of 4 SD and 1 in every 100 will be outside of 6 SD.

With a data set of between 20 and 100 points, it’s reasonable to say the extreme spread is expected to be 4-5 times the SD.

Sounds reasonable!

 

[243Mendoza]

I can email our results if you want to pm me. That figure is about average and the error could be in the shooters favour or out of the shooters favour. I know it’s still not perfect but neither is manual marking 100% of the time or there would be no need to challenge from time to time. We have just held two events, one three days from 300-900m and the other two days 700-900m and there has been no issues.

Contrary to some competitors' thinking, pulled target scoring is not perfect. Will send PM. Thanks.

 

[Scott Harris]

David, Yes you can challenge a shot. Did it, lost. The shot was there. I went down to look.

Keith, Plotting is not my bag, waste of time, for me. I agree that shooting fast with no limit is a different sport entirely. I would not want to see that at all. That is why we have a 7 second delay. When we were first looking at getting these targets, it was considered a good idea to see if it would count all shots put down as fast as possible. After a few sighters, I was timed in 43 seconds, 20 rds and 200 17X. That was shortly after David set that record. Granted no wind, but way to easy.

That's the wrong game for me. I would not want to shoot a match like that. That is not, however, what we do. Everybody in F class gets a 7 second delay before the shot or score is displayed.

If all matches were run with a 7 second+ delay, then I would have a lot less issue with e-targets. This is not currently the case and I hope it gets fixed. Accuracy issues are worth discussing, but at the end of the day everyone shoots on the same system so it "should" average out. So not a concern of mine. The lack of a delay and lack of wireless reliability are my gripes.

 

[Bob Sebold]

With our targets setting a 7 second delay is no big deal. Sling shooters do not have any delay, I guess they can't shoot fast enough to matter. You log in as a shooter with our given competitor number and the system knows you are shooting Open, TR, or sling. Unless you change your caliber during the string, that will already be set as well. There is no rubber backer on our system to wear out so we do not have that problem either.

I know Danny watches the spotter, I have seen him stop when I shoot wide! I wish they could be used on E targets but... You can kind of see them on the display but it is too small and I think your eyes should be looking downrange at all times anyway. I do not know much about other systems, but I think some delay mandatory. You could argue 7 seconds is to long or short all. That was set by the NRA high Power committee I believe. I do not know why everybody with e targets is not doing that.

 

[Bob Sebold]

Also, for anyone building a new range, or expanding like I hope we can. You do not need pits at all with E Targets. A good pit wall can be VERY expensive. I think about 1/2 the cost of E targets. If you are building a new range that would be the way to go IMO.

 

[memilanuk]

Also, for anyone building a new range, or expanding like I hope we can. You do not need pits at all with E Targets. A good pit wall can be VERY expensive. I think about 1/2 the cost of E targets. If you are building a new range that would be the way to go IMO.

That's pretty much where we're at, and why we went with e-targets. An older range, built in the 50s with 'volunteer' labor, and generally poorly maintained for a lot of years. Lots of things about that pit set up had gotten to where it gave me the willies as a match director when I 'inherited' the problems. It had gotten to the point where the pit wall needed rebuilt, and new carriers built, etc.... about $50-100k worth of work, easily, by the time you factor in heavy equipment time, fuel, etc. plus materials.

Or a handful of e-targets, at a fraction of that cost. Not a real tough decision.

I can understand if not everyone wants to shoot on them. Plenty of other ranges to go to. But as a match director, I'd a lot rather put up with competitors grumbling about the quirks of the e-target system, than worry about their safety in those pits. I know a lot of people rant about the accuracy of e-target systems, and others rave about not having to pull targets, do pit changes, etc. from a 'comfort' point of view... but I'm really surprised that the aspect of shooter *safety* gets so little attention.

 

[HomeSlice]

eh, not so much I don't think. It's a skill, like any other. It's just as easy be led wrong as right if you aren't careful. I guarantee you that top shooters (sling included) aren't ignoring useful data like spotters around them if it gives them even the slightest edge.

The SMT targets we’ve been using let you look at any of the targets, not just your own. That info is a screen tap away if you want to see it.

 

[memilanuk]

The SMT targets we’ve been using let you look at any of the targets, not just your own. That info is a screen tap away if you want to see it.

True... but without a server, its very slow (reload the whole page). With the server, you get athumbnail images with the approx. spotter location right on your targets page, as well as being able to click on the thumbnail image to look closer at the target of interest.

 

[saunaking]

A perspective from someone who has shot at the last two F-class nationals at Lodi as a "shooter in progress"; 2016 was a learning curve for SMT and the powers that be at Lodi for equipment and setup. 2017 was a lot better from the standpoint of the system functioning. Even with the 2016 wi-fi problems, I felt that the scores were accurate and fair. I had a day where I shot cleans with high X-counts at 300 and 500 yards turn into a 191- 3X at 600. Does that mean that the targets suddenly quit giving accurate readings, or my lack of wind reading skills for that match? I think it was the second option. We use paper targets at my home range. Watching the guys pulling in the pits varies greatly from target to target. Anything that can be done to make it consistent across the board for all shooters is progress. Like all new technology, improvements will happen. Rather than complain, get involved with constructive feedback to help the manufacturers improve the systems.
I enjoy pit duty...most of the time. It gives you a chance to see what is going on with conditions at the target, vs what you may have thought was going on at the firing line. For some of the shooters less capable of pulling/scoring targets, it is a chance to participate in the sport longer than they may be able to otherwise. If you don't feel the margin of error is equal for all shooters when e-targets are being used, stay away from those matches. If enough people stay away from matches because e-targets are being used, the ranges and match directors will get the message.

 

[Beau]

Shooting sling, I think it takes me more than 7 seconds to check wind and load after a shot.

 

[338 Mollett]

But I do agree with some delay in readout since wind reading is a skill that is part of highpower competition. But it should be greater than 7 sec...more like 30 sec. ( that should raise blood pressure of some people

I agree on the time delay,but 30sec is too much.A fast puller can get the target down, scored, and up in 8 sec.Unless handicapped everyone should pull in 15sec.I have never complained about 15sec turnaround.