Smith & Wesson “Hillary Hole”?

[Tommie]

While I completely agree in principle with the general disdain, is there a functional difference between old vs new revolver designs?

 

[edwardware]

Function, as in the kinematic design? No, other than the lock, which is passive when disengaged.

Mechanically, many of the parts are MIM, which really pisses off the purists.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Lots more parts with a transfer bar than if the firing pin was just on the hammer. Way more parts to jam up

 

[Tommie]

Lots more parts with a transfer bar than if the firing pin was just on the hammer. Way more parts to jam up

Ok. Didn’t know about the “new” models having a transfer bar. That definitely changes things.

 

[matthias]

Its not a transfer bar. You can remove it and the revolver still works. It is a safety mechanism that gets pulled out of the way so the hammer can travel all the way forward.

 

[GotRDid]

Hillary Hole?!?
Uhhh.....


GotRDid.

 

[shoot4fun]

The Hilary Hole? Never heard it called that before. Yes, the keyhole on the side right above the cylinder release for locking the mechanism and preventing operation of the revolver.
@Tommie the transfer bar has been incorporated into S&W revolvers (all others too to my knowledge) to keep a sharp blow to the hammer from setting off the primer underneath it in the cylinder. It has been there since the late 80's (maybe longer).
I do, in fact, know of a person who was misfortunate enough to have their S&W wheel gun go off while strapped in the holster. It happened when the butt of a shotgun rapped the hammer spur in just the perfect way. It was many years ago and before the transfer bar.
During my time working for S&W I talked at length to many of the "old-timers" about failures in either the key lock or transfer bar system that rendered the revolver inoperable. No one could relate any story where an unmolested (home gunsmith) had failed due to either.
Even Ruger single-actions have a transfer bar system.

 

[matthias]

The Hilary Hole? Never heard it called that before. Yes, the keyhole on the side right above the cylinder release for locking the mechanism and preventing operation of the revolver.
@Tommie the transfer bar has been incorporated into S&W revolvers (all others too to my knowledge) to keep a sharp blow to the hammer from setting off the primer underneath it in the cylinder. It has been there since the late 80's (maybe longer).
I do, in fact, know of a person who was misfortunate enough to have their S&W wheel gun go off while strapped in the holster. It happened when the butt of a shotgun rapped the hammer spur in just the perfect way. It was many years ago and before the transfer bar.
During my time working for S&W I talked at length to many of the "old-timers" about failures in either the key lock or transfer bar system that rendered the revolver inoperable. No one could relate any story where an unmolested (home gunsmith) had failed due to either.
Even Ruger single-actions have a transfer bar system.

Its not a transfer bar. It is a hammer block. It is not required to set the rounds off. In a ruger if you remove the transfer bar the gun doesn't go bang. In the smith if you remove it it will shoot just fine. It may also shoot if you hit the hammer. Hence the name hammer block. Its a safety of sorts.

 

[shoot4fun]

Its not a transfer bar. It is a hammer block. It is not required to set the rounds off. In a ruger if you remove the transfer bar the gun doesn't go bang. In the smith if you remove it it will shoot just fine. It may also shoot if you hit the hammer. Hence the name hammer block. Its a safety of sorts.

I started calling it a transfer bar when S&W went to a firing pin in the frame instead of on the hammer.

 

[LHSmith]

Whatever......the image that term conjures up is repugnant to the nth degree.

 

[shoot4fun]

Whatever......the image that term conjures up is repugnant to the nth degree.

S&W revolvers went thru so much engineering and manufacturing change over the years it's hard to keep up with. Guess that is why the old guns (heyday guns) bring such hefty sums.
Two piece barrels, hammer blocks and even key holes didn't bother me near as much as the switch to all MIM hammers and triggers instead of forged parts and the frame mounted firing pin.

 

[Twicepop]

I started calling it a transfer bar when S&W went to a firing pin in the frame instead of on the hammer.

I think the frame mounted firing pin was a great idea. I've had both designs, and I never pierced a primer on a frame mounted firing pin gun.

 

[matthias]

The other fun thing about the mim parts is that once you wear through the hard layer the part needs to be replaced. Very few people wear through the hard layer shooting, most are "smoothing the action out". Then they can't figure out why it feels different every range trip.

 

[shoot4fun]

The other fun thing about the mim parts is that once you wear through the hard layer the part needs to be replaced. Very few people wear through the hard layer shooting, most are "smoothing the action out". Then they can't figure out why it feels different every range trip.

This!
Have a gunsmith do an action job and even attempt to get close to what the old guns could be.
That MIM part is not through hardened like the original forged part.

 

[Tommie]

This!
Have a gunsmith do an action job and even attempt to get close to what the old guns could be.
That MIM part is not through hardened like the original forged part.

The other fun thing about the mim parts is that once you wear through the hard layer the part needs to be replaced. Very few people wear through the hard layer shooting, most are "smoothing the action out". Then they can't figure out why it feels different every range trip.

That brings up an interesting point. Conventional wisdom says Ruger revolvers need lots of dry fire break-in but doesn’t Ruger use MIM for just about everything?

 

[matthias]

I think the rugers really suffer from sharp edges and surface finish of the internal parts. Also I would bet money even committed revolver shooters will not shoot enough to naturally wear through the hard surface. With abrasives it is all too easy

 

[shoot4fun]

I think the rugers really suffer from sharp edges and surface finish of the internal parts. Also I would bet money even committed revolver shooters will not shoot enough to naturally wear through the hard surface. With abrasives it is all too easy

At least IF that surface hardening is done correctly.
BUT, the committed ones will do an immense amount of dry-fire practice and that is the same as actual shooting on the internals.

 

[edwardware]

. . . but doesn’t Ruger use MIM for just about everything?

No, Ruger uses fewer MIM parts, and more cast parts. My understanding is that Ruger leads the casting industry for high performance cast small steel parts, especially stainless.

Having worked both, I think Ruger's "need more break in" because the mechanism prioritizes robustness over delicacy.

 

[shoot4fun]

I think the frame mounted firing pin was a great idea. I've had both designs, and I never pierced a primer on a frame mounted firing pin gun.

So, your "handle" here isn't because of kids/grandkids then?
If you are popping primers regularly in a revolver it is not the fault of the firing pin location.
When the frame mounted firing pin guns get smoothed up and springs worked over they always get extra length firing pins from Cylinder & Slide to keep them shooting.

 

[Twicepop]

So, your "handle" here isn't because of kids/grandkids then?
If you are popping primers regularly in a revolver it is not the fault of the firing pin location.
When the frame mounted firing pin guns get smoothed up and springs worked over they always get extra length firing pins from Cylinder & Slide to keep them shooting.

Yes the "handle" is/was because of kids I have twin daughters, hence I was "POP" twice. The pierced primers were all with factory ammo of various brands. All were with a Smith and Wesson Model 19 and a foreign made copy of a Colt SAA both with the hammer mounted firing pin. I can't verify absolutely that was the cause, but I've read this is a common malady with these guns that have a hammer mounted firing pin, including the original Colts as well. A guy that I used to work with also had a Smith and Wesson Model 19 that pierced primers, his also had the hammer mounted firing pin. The later .357 Mags that I own/have owned all had a frame mounted firing pin and none of these has ever pierced a primer. Not absolute science, but my observation.