Small Base vs Standard Die

[alinwa]

Most reloaders forget about the shell holder, the shell holder has a deck height, again, it is a burden but I must be the only reloader that measured the deck height of the shell holder. I use shell holders with a deck height of .125". A shell holder with a deck height of .125" can be used with any die manufactured sense 1960 +/- a year or two.

So? I do not know what part of the case head you are measuring but it is impossible to size any part of the case head below .125" because of the deck height of the shell holder. After that there is another consideration, the die had a radius, the radius prevents the die from sizing the case head below .125 + the radius. And then there is a great big problem with reloaders, rather than think about it they had rather act silly.

There is no shortage of small base dies around here, it is not fair but I find it most difficult to measure the difference between cases sized with a small base ide and a 'good fitting' standard die.

Before the Internet and anti social media: There were different chambers meaning the same ammo that was designed to be fired in the 03 and M1917 was issued to be used in the M1 Garand. I could ask, "How could that be?' but I am not in a crowd that would understand the question.

And then there was Browning, Browning made semi/auto 30/06, 270s, 300 win Mags etc.. and I ask , "What was a reloader to do?", Anyhow I have 6 sets of dies that are labeled BAR dies. The BAR identified the dies as small base dies for Browning Automatic Rifles.

I could ask: What to do if a reloaders does not have small base dies? I have used the feeler gage between the deck of the shell holder and case head to increase the ability of the press to overcome the ability of the case to resist sizing and increase the ability of the press/die to shorten the case from the shoulder to the case head. This method has never failed me. Other reloaders? They spend all of their time 'bumping' and talking about it. I cant talk about bumping the shoulder because I can not bump the shoulder with a die that has case body support.

F. Guffey

This is flat-out frickin amazing!!!!

 

[pirate ammo]

got to go get my stanley tape measure thing,,

 

[Uncle Ed]

Wouldn't it be nice if every rifle came with the reamer print

The problem then would be a reamer print for your dies and how much - minus or smaller it should be from the chamber.

I worked part time in a Sporting Goods store and got a very good discount. As you can see below I had .223 die OCD and wanted to see the differences in dies and their sizing dimensions. This started because a very experienced shooter in the CMP reloading forum said how much dies varied in size.

And the same applies to drop in case gauges and gauge diameter.

Below a once fired military Lake City 7.62 case in a Dillon case gauge, that was fired in a M-14 or machine gun and not resized.

Below the same fired case in a JP Enterprise case gauge made with a finish chamber reamer. I love these JP Enterprise gauges, because if it fits in this gauge it will chamber in any rifle. This helps with sizing once fired military brass and brass springback after sizing. And also means nothing if new brass is fired in your chamber.

 

[JFrank]

I get all that, I just find it comforting to have my 6 br reamer print.
As Guffey always says (LE Wilson makes case gauges) and as Al points out after 50 chamberings on multiple barrels on different days etc.

 

[Bc'z]

Well damn it Guff!! Ya made me go n do it.
Let's just say your deck is bigger n my deck.
By .0015
Ed which die did you wind up liking the most?

 

[GSPV]

The whole question is how closely your die matches your chamber.

You can start with a chamber and get a custom die made that matchs the reamer print/brass fired in your chamber. Or, you can go the other way, get a reamer/chamber that matches quality off-the-shelf dies. I've done it both ways and had both success and just not quiet satisfactory results both ways. YMMV.

My current experiment is having had a die reamer cut along with my chamber reamer. I'll have a FL die cut using it in a Newlon die blank. We'll see how that works out.

 

[jds holler]

I look at small base dies as one of those tools that is there for us if or when needed. They are a blessing when needed, and there is no shame in using one.

I've got one tight chamber in an old Rem 22BR. I run the brass through a small base 308 die for the first fire, and never have to do it again. Spring-back or other magic ju-ju allows for good fit after that.

I can also attest that .0005" counts for a lot when it comes to allowing a tapered case body to fit in a tight situation. jd

 

[Uncle Ed]

Ed which die did you wind up liking the most?

The Forster full length dies are the best simply because of the high mounted floating expander. And the Forster expander greatly reduced case neck runout.

"BUT" the first time I size my once fired Lake City cases I use a RCBS small base die that has the Forster expander installed.

Below on the left is the RCBS expander raised as high as it will move. And on the right the Forster expander and spindle assembly that fits the RCBS dies.

Below a modified Forster expander and spindle fitted to a Redding full length .243 die. And again the Forster high mounted floating expander greatly reduces neck runout. And you are not dragging the longer Redding expander through the neck with its increased pull on the neck.

Below the Forster expander enters the case neck when it is held and centered in the neck of the die.

That being said and most of you will cringe, but the simple Lee dies have a rigidly mounted and centered expander. But the Forster expander sill has less neck runout after sizing than the Lee die. The vast majority of case neck runout is caused when the expander is locked down off center.

 

[spclark]

...rounds would not go into battery in my POF but cycled just fine in my wifes. Both rifles shoot 556/223.

Right... that both (barrels, chambers, whatever) be stamped 556/223, there's a 1001% chance those two chambers are different enough at the breech end that those sized cases would chamber fine in hers but not yours.

All chambers (and dies from the various suppliers) are not created equal.

 

[Bc'z]

Right... that both (barrels, chambers, whatever) be stamped 556/223, there's a 1001% chance those two chambers are different enough at the breech end that those sized cases would chamber fine in hers but not yours.

All chambers (and dies from the various suppliers) are not created equal.

Hence the need for a S/B die.
Thanks Ed, I remember reading this post.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

if you get hammonds small base die or a pbike ring die itll size all the way into the extractor groove. the shellholders they come with have very short decks. that's a real small base die not just a die that's smaller at the .200 line, but they help sometimes in some chambers.

 

[fguffey]

Well damn it Guff!! Ya made me go n do it.
Let's just say your deck is bigger n my deck.
By .0015
Ed which die did you wind up liking the most?

Bc'Z, We have reloaders talking in lofty terms about bumping the shoulder back .002", I believe it is impossible to bump the shoulder back. If we are talking about de3ck height as it applies to the shell holder I insist on using shell holders with a deck height of .125", If I am returning cases to minimum length/full length size the die and shell holder matches. It is possible to verify the die and shell holder for their ability to size the case, the difficult part comes when the reloaders is forced to push their way from the keyboard.

For me? Not a problem, when sizing a case I can determine if the case was sized when the ram was raised by measuring the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die. BUT FIRST the reloader must adjust the die to the shell holder for sizing to minimum length/full length size. And again, the reloader should be able to verify the shell holder and die.

F. Guffey

 

[dkhunt14]

Bc'Z, We have reloaders talking in lofty terms about bumping the shoulder back .002", I believe it is impossible to bump the shoulder back. If we are talking about de3ck height as it applies to the shell holder I insist on using shell holders with a deck height of .125", If I am returning cases to minimum length/full length size the die and shell holder matches. It is possible to verify the die and shell holder for their ability to size the case, the difficult part comes when the reloaders is forced to push their way from the keyboard.

For me? Not a problem, when sizing a case I can determine if the case was sized when the ram was raised by measuring the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die. BUT FIRST the reloader must adjust the die to the shell holder for sizing to minimum length/full length size. And again, the reloader should be able to verify the shell holder and die.

F. Guffey

This has nothing to do with a small base die. A small base die has nothing to do with how much you move the shoulder. Matt

 

[JFrank]

Some people can sit in there shop all day doing transfers with feeler gauges others have to go to work to buy more feeler gauges

 

[jepp2]

Below on the left is the RCBS expander raised as high as it will move.

Not really. Just thread it further down the shaft and you can raise the expander as much as you want.

 

[GSPV]

Get rid of the danged expanders on your dies. If you need dings ironed out, use an expanding mandrel.

 

[spclark]

This has nothing to do with a small base die. A small base die has nothing to do with how much you move the shoulder.

True enough!!

BUT if the OP's issue over fired & sized brass that won't chamber in in one rifle, that chambers fine in another, isn't because the shoulder's not bumped far enough back... then the next dimension that ought to get close attention likely is case diameter just ahead of the extractor groove.

Heck I've had brass I fired new in ONE rifle (bolt gun) that then didn't chamber in the same danged rifle once it'd been sized unless it was run thru a small base die first.

NOthing else fixed the issue... until I had that chamber re-cut with a different reamer.

 

[blackwidowp61]

I have two 742 30-06s that will not go into battery if the brass is not run through a small base die. I even tried to use brass fired in those rifles with just the neck resized and they still wouldn't go into battery.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I have two 742 30-06s that will not go into battery if the brass is not run through a small base die. I even tried to use brass fired in those rifles with just the neck resized and they still wouldn't go into battery.

Autoloader remingtons do not like handloads for sure. That goes doubly for neck sized brass. They wont even work right in a bolt action

 

[blackwidowp61]

Yeah, I found that out too the hard way, but the 700 will work with a regular full length die, as will the 760.