Slow burning powders in the 6XC

[Frankr]

Anyone with information on use of slow burning powders in the 6XC ? IMR7828 ect..
I am using a 26" .236 bore 4 groove 1-8 twist. shooting naked 105 Berger Hunting VLD's..
I have been shooting H4350 around 40.0-40.5 grs at 3,025 FPS good 1/4 to 1/2 MOA.
I have been shooting RL17 around 40.0-40.5 grs at 3,150 FPS good 1/2 MOA.
I am building a 26" .236 bore 4 groove in 1-7 twist..It is in the works - a done deal. as I would call it. I'm Building it to shoot the Berger 115 VLD . So the wheels have been turning,thinking about a slower powder dense load lower pressure to push that 115 in that 7 twist...So I had some RL23 and some RL26 was shooting in a 7mag. so I did some case fill test and some pressure testing.

Warning : This Information IS FOR ACDAEMIC THEORY ONLY.
This is what I found out..
Case fill using a 4" drop tube funnel and slow fill to ensure I could get enough powder in the case. Norma Case was filled to the bottom of the neck. so a bullet could be seated the full length of the neck without compressing the powder.
RL 23 filled to the base of the neck at 43.0 GRS.
Pressure test in my 26" 1-8 with a naked 105 HVLD
41.0gr 2,975 FPS
42.0gr 3,002 FPS
43.0gr 3,075 FPS

RL26 filled to the base of the neck at 46.0 grs..wow you can pack a lot of RL26 in there.
43.0gr 3,032
44.0gr 3,069
45.0gr 3,149
now little red flags were going off in my head.
45.5gr 3,205 FPS Stick Bolt..Moderate HARD LIFT. definite High Pressure!

Just wondering if maybe a denser case fill with a slower powder could possibly increase barrel life or maybe produce higher velocity with less pressure. If only my Barrel was longer...you know what i'm saying lol......

 

[rcol317]

The slowest powder I've used I'm my XC is H4831SC shooting 115's In one rifle I'm shooting 42.5 gr and with the other I'm @ 42 gr. I'd be sure to start couple grains below and work up.

 

[Frankr]

rcol317 what is the barrel length. twist . what have you chrony 'ed the H4831sc at ?
I have some H4831sc I also have some IMR7828 . The RL26 powder so far in the 7 mag's I have shot it in seems to be real accurate. It really seems hard to beat RL17 for velocity and in my 6XC and it has been good enough accurate. I have read a few articales where shooters have won matches shooting RL17. I really im trying to get a idea where im going to start testing this 1-7 twist with the Berger 115 Hunting VLD. I will start with the basics . but im already thinking outside the box. And if MY Barrel was longer I doubt I would have time to full with this kind of stuff. You know what im saying..lol....

 

[rcol317]

I shoot one 6 XC in my hunting rifle, it's a proof research 26" 7 1/5 twist. I shoot that one with 42.5 gr. of H 4831 SC, it's running 3,050 fps with under 1/2 MOA @ 400 yards with 115 VLD's . The other is a new barrel I just had Bob Green put on a Barnard actioned F class rifle. It's 28" 7 twist. I've only shot a few rounds breaking it in. It's an X-Caliber barrel. So far not real impressed with H 4831SC in that rifle but just now starting to work on it. I went 7 twist because I'm planing on only shooting 115's. Was told I screwed up and should have gone with an 8 twist because 7 twist won't shoot 105's. I'll see. I've learned I get a lot of advise after I re-barrel. I'm asking a lot more questions before I do any more barrels. The downfall I have with RL 17 and RL 19 is that I shoot a lot in AZ and heat really creates challenges where I find Hodgdon extreme powder more forgiving in large temp swings. My 6 XC is my Coues deer gun and may be 5o degrees and then may be 95 degrees the next. When I go to Mexico I don't want an issue. Enjoy your 6 XC. Rick

 

[Frankr]

Thanks for the reply rcol317. I was thinking about 3,050 or 3,100 would be about max for the 115's.
You are wrong about the RL17 in the temp swing..spend some time behind a chronograph and see what you find out.
But I have only shot it with the 105 VLD..But it does seem in my 26" barrel no matter what powder around 3,150 FPS is making MAX pressure with the 105VLD. But thanks to the RL17 I have been shooting it from 30 deg F to about 85 deg F and it stays at 3,150 FPS push into the 90's and it will get up to 3,180 FPS and I get a little bolt lift up a half grain and I hit just over 3,200 FPS and I have heavy bolt lift..with the RL17. I also have been shooting the RL17 in a 6.5 creedmoore with the same good temp results . I have a friend shooting it in a 270WSM and his dad shooting it in a 7WSM we all have had good temperature stability with the RL17 and we can see 30 deg in the morning and 80 deg in the afternoon around here with high humidity..I don't know why it seem to work so well here but it does.

 

[Gina1]

Shooting 6XC with 105 Berger Hybrids. I started with a new barrel and IMR4350. Read some good things about H4831sc for the 6XC. Tried it and it shot well. BUT the barrel, after 30 rounds HG competition was so hot you could burn yourself on it. Switched to RL-17, shot extremely well, sub MOA at 200 yards. BUT barrel is still getting too hot after HG competition. (you know this has not to be good for the barrel)
Finally switched to IMR 8208BRX, Getting very good results, and the barrel is only getting warm after 10 rounds. No pressure signs, and the speed is near or at 3,000 fps.
Just my experiences with different powders.

 

[LitLBoy]

Berger Hybrid 105 41.7/7828SSC 3100fps 26" Lilja 3 groove barrel
LitLBoy

 

[Frankr]

Thanks Gina 1 and LitLBoy I knew a few people were shooting the IMR7828.
I have heard about the 8208XBR I don't have enough of it to test it..I do have two LBS of IMR4007 I know they quit making it..I shot it in a 6.5 creedmoore and I suspected it to be the perfect burn speed for the 6XC I just never tried it.

 

[357Mag]

FJIM -

Howdy !


FWIW - I've been shooting IMR7828 ( and 7828SC ) in my " Deep 6 " wildcat.
Case capacity is 51.2gr H20, which is larger than the capacities fr 6 X 47L, 6XC... I believe.

IMR7828 is noteably s-l-o-w in my application, shooting bullets such as 95MK, 95 Berger, 105s; et al.
Example: from a 29" 1-8 Broughton 5"C", 95MK is going 2,960fps; and the case is completely full
of IMR7828. I like the stuff, because accuracy ( my loads, my gun ) has been superb; ver a variety of bullet
weights.

I also shoot RL-22 in the same rifle/wildcat. The case is very-nearly full, and charge wts vary only a couple tenths; when producing accuracy loads for 6mm bullet wt's of 85 -107gr. It's a great " node " apparently, when using RL-22. Accuracy rivals that obtained w/ I7828. I shot my personal best ever 5-shot
100yd group, using RL-22.

For my shooting needs, I ( so far ) have not needed to reach any specific vel threshold, and these super high load densities sure seem to work !

I DK if that helps you , any ?

With regards,
357Mag

 

[Frankr]

Thanks 357Mag yea I don't know if it really helps me but it's interesting. Your velocity seems real slow for a 29" tube with a case of that capacity.. Do you know how to look for excessive pressure signs? Have you ever tried a 4'' or 6'' drop tube and a slow trickle into the case..This method has been used to load the 6PPC..I used to shoot some short range BR so i'm well versed in getting more powder in there. By using a drop tube you pack more powder in the case as the powder packs in more densely allow more powder in the case. an example would be you can only fill a case to the bottom of the neck with say 42.0 grs. before your bullet would be compressing the powder..if you used a drop tube and a slow fill you could depending on the powder you are using get say 44.0 grs to the same fill . I have used this technique on few different cartridges from time to time..You have to be careful to watch for pressure signs..That is what I had done in testing some slow powders.so I could get enough of that powder in the case to make peak pressure.or TO FIND the MAX load.
Seems I read a lot of people shooting H1000 in the 6CM and 243 IMP 30 with good results and HOT ROD velocity's. that would be in your cartridges case capacity class..

Deep 6 hun. sounds cool.. post some pic's if you can.

I was thinking of making one of my own and calling it 6 across the hill. or 6mm ATH.

 

[357Mag]

FJIM -

Howdy !

I think I can tell when pressure is getting to be excessive.
My sense of it is: in my " DEEP 6 " wildcat circumstance; it appears that the pressure generated by the IMR7828 is speaking just as the case has reached the " full " point ( w/ a small amount of compression on the powder columne ). In this specific instance, I did not feel the need to go w/ a longer drop tube, as pressure had peaked; and the case was certainly full enough to do that.

FWIW - My bullets are seated deeper in the ( DEEP 6 ) case..... which has a .350" neck lg.... than what many others would like to see.
This certainly impacts the amount of powder I could possibly introduce to the case; and successfully top w/ a seated bullet.
If I really wanted to maximize the case' capacity, I'd do it via a re-chamber /re-barrel; and at that point set things up w/ the bullets seated out longer. I'm single-loading through the loading port of my single-shot WBR1375 action, so cartridge oal is not a big concern for me.

Pic shows 3 of my wildcats. From the left:
- My design for a 6.5mm wildcat, chamber made by running 6.5 X 47L in a little deeper. This was for a shooter in New Zealand. Case is unfired.
- " DEEP 6 ".... chamber for which is cut by running a 6mm Remington reamer in " short ", for a .466" base diam. 7 X 64 Brenneke is parent brass.
- .22-35 Remington, w/ 75"A"-Max seated for use in 28" SS 1-8 5-groove K & P

Second pic shows .22-35 case w/ and w/o seated bullet.

I'll try to send the pics.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[dennisinaz]

Anyone with information on use of slow burning powders in the 6XC ? IMR7828 ect..
I am using a 26" .236 bore 4 groove 1-8 twist. shooting naked 105 Berger Hunting VLD's..
I have been shooting H4350 around 40.0-40.5 grs at 3,025 FPS good 1/4 to 1/2 MOA.
I have been shooting RL17 around 40.0-40.5 grs at 3,150 FPS good 1/2 MOA.
I am building a 26" .236 bore 4 groove in 1-7 twist..It is in the works - a done deal. as I would call it. I'm Building it to shoot the Berger 115 VLD . So the wheels have been turning,thinking about a slower powder dense load lower pressure to push that 115 in that 7 twist...So I had some RL23 and some RL26 was shooting in a 7mag. so I did some case fill test and some pressure testing.

Warning : This Information IS FOR ACDAEMIC THEORY ONLY.
This is what I found out..
Case fill using a 4" drop tube funnel and slow fill to ensure I could get enough powder in the case. Norma Case was filled to the bottom of the neck. so a bullet could be seated the full length of the neck without compressing the powder.
RL 23 filled to the base of the neck at 43.0 GRS.
Pressure test in my 26" 1-8 with a naked 105 HVLD
41.0gr 2,975 FPS
42.0gr 3,002 FPS
43.0gr 3,075 FPS

RL26 filled to the base of the neck at 46.0 grs..wow you can pack a lot of RL26 in there.
43.0gr 3,032
44.0gr 3,069
45.0gr 3,149
now little red flags were going off in my head.
45.5gr 3,205 FPS Stick Bolt..Moderate HARD LIFT. definite High Pressure!

Just wondering if maybe a denser case fill with a slower powder could possibly increase barrel life or maybe produce higher velocity with less pressure. If only my Barrel was longer...you know what i'm saying lol......

The 105 Hybrid has a higher BC than the 115 Berger VLD, no point in getting a 7 or 7 1/2 twist unless you only want to shoot DTACs.

 

[wboggs]

Why do you want to shoot 115 VLD's when the 105 Hybrid has the same G7 ? Do you find the 115 more accurate?

 

[Frankr]

This rifle is a hybrid hunting/target rifle.. I want to try the High SD of the 115 VLD . want to clobber some deer with it..truth be told...the 105's worked great so. Yea would like to try some DTAC's.

 

[Frankr]

This rifle is a hybrid hunting/target rifle.. I want to try the High SD of the 115 VLD . want to clobber some deer with it..truth be told...the 105's worked great so. Yea would like to try some DTAC's.

It seems there maybe just as many Hunting rifle's chambered in the 6XC as there are target rifles now days. The reasons I chose the 6XC over any cartridge I could have chambered. First the 105 hunting VLD's are well proven big game stoppers.
so wanting a cartridge to drive that bullet that would be as accurate as the 6BR. Fit in a short action with out any magazine modification,feed well. although a second shot is really never needed. It's there if you do.Have enough velocity for long shots.Easy to get and load for. Well that is the 6XC. The 6XC is a world class Hunting round. All the key features that it was made for to be a great target round makes it a easy choice for a hybrid hunting/tactical/target rifle.I have one built in a 1-8 twist and after taking a few deer with it wanted to try a 1-7 twist with the 115's. I hope it's ready to go by December.

I guess I wont have a lot of time. so I will start with the H4831. But RL26 shows good promise. RL23 is supposed to be dead flat temp stabile. what little bit I shot it in a 7mm rem mag and 7mm WM I was not impressed. But RL26 Looked real good and was super accurate. I had a factory Mark 5 in 7mm WM down to 1/2 moa at 200 yards.and it never shot any better than inch and a half plus. so we will try. H4831, RL23,RL26 what ever shoots decent we will be off hunting. then after hunting season we will do a good bit of testing out to 1000 yards..

 

[kombayotch]

I read this the other day: https://www.facebook.com/thedavidtubb/posts/1481532948782626

David Tubb
September 15, 2014 ·

I received a message with a question that I thought I should share incase others had similar questions.

What kind of serviceable barrel life are you getting on your 6XC's? How many firings is the brass lasting with annealing every 2nd or 3rd firing. Thinking about trying one for a Tactical Match Rifle.

I am using H1000 around 45 gr. and 115 DTAC.
When not shooting rapid fire strings I have one meticulous friend who has over 4200 rds through his Schneider and his test platform is. 945yd around Sedona.
This is the first season for my H1000 testing but I can already tell that my barrel life is going to be substantially better than it was with H4350.

When asked about velocity, he responded: "North side of 3050 fps"

 

[Frankr]

Thank You for the information kombayotch . I will give it a try.

 

[Frankr]

This rifle is a hybrid hunting/target rifle.. I want to try the High SD of the 115 VLD . want to clobber some deer with it..truth be told...the 105's worked great so. Yea would like to try some DTAC's.

It seems there maybe just as many Hunting rifle's chambered in the 6XC as there are target rifles now days. The reasons I chose the 6XC over any cartridge I could have chambered. First the 105 hunting VLD's are well proven big game stoppers.
so wanting a cartridge to drive that bullet that would be as accurate as the 6BR. Fit in a short action with out any magazine modification,feed well. although a second shot is really never needed. It's there if you do.Have enough velocity for long shots.Easy to get and load for. Well that is the 6XC. The 6XC is a world class Hunting round. All the key features that it was made for to be a great target round makes it a easy choice for a hybrid hunting/tactical/target rifle.I have one built in a 1-8 twist and after taking a few deer with it wanted to try a 1-7 twist with the 115's. I hope it's ready to go by December.

I guess I wont have a lot of time. so I will start with the H4831. But RL26 shows good promise. RL23 is supposed to be dead flat temp stabile. what little bit I shot it in a 7mm rem mag and 7mm WM I was not impressed. But RL26 Looked real good and was super accurate. I had a factory Mark 5 in 7mm WM down to 1/2 moa at 200 yards.and it never shot any better than inch and a half plus. so we will try. H4831, RL23,RL26 what ever shoots decent we will be off hunting. then after hunting season we will do a good bit of testing out to 1000 yards..

I say there is just about as many Hunting rifles in 6XC because all you have to do is go to youtube and type in 6XC Hunting and you can watch a ton of video's. here is one I like. but there are many.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USi3fVdQfGc

 

[Gina1]

Update

[size=10pt]Shooting 6XC with 105 Berger Hybrids. I started with a new barrel and IMR4350. Read some good things about H4831sc for the 6XC. Tried it and it shot well. BUT the barrel, after 30 rounds HG competition was so hot you could burn yourself on it. Switched to RL-17, shot extremely well, sub MOA at 200 yards. BUT barrel is still getting too hot after HG competition. (you know this has not to be good for the barrel)
Finally switched to IMR 8208BRX, Getting very good results, and the barrel is only getting warm after 10 rounds. No pressure signs, and the speed is near or at 3,000 fps.
Just my experiences with different powders.

I'm in the process of replacing the barrel on my 6XC. Almost over night it went wanky. I could not get it sighted in. High, low, left, right. Looking at the throat through a cheap electronic bore scope I could see "something" Took it to my gunsmith. When he removed the action, he could see damage down the throat. Said it was not worth re-chambering. Brought it home and cut off the chamber and a few extra inches with a band saw. Then cut that length wise. What I found was... there were "no" lands 2 inches beyond the end of the neck. Looking at the bore with a 20X microscope... fire cracking everywhere. This was a Bartlein barrel, so it was a good barrel to start off with . Only had about 1,100 rounds through it
So what did it in?[/size]
All the loads, except perhaps the last 150 rounds were slow burning powder 4350, 4831sc, and RL-17. As I said in my earlier post the barrel, during a match, would get burning hot. Loads were not at max, no pressure signs and I was using CCI 250 mag primers. rifle was always cleaned after firing.
So what will I do different on this one...
Switching to CCi BR2 primers, will be using 8208XBR powder, and maybe a lower powder charge, going for 2800-2900 fps, instead of 3000 fps.
Time will tell.

 

[LitLBoy]

You may also want to try 7828SSC 41-42gr 105 BH .020 off BR-2's .003 neck tension
LitLBoy