Sling Shooters please
- Thread starter gme
- Start date
it kind of goes back to the old thing about perfect practice makes perfect. you should take a look at how you are practicing and try and analyze where your problem points are. write down your shot process and try to etch it in your mind. everything from buttstock, feet and support arm placement to the amount of controlled muscular tension and everything in between. finding a coach or at least someone who is a consistent High Master to help you diagnose issues can be a big help. I don't really train in mental management so I can't give advice there but there are a lot of people who do and it works for them so practicing at least some part of that could help as well.
Fast14riot
Gold $$ Contributor
Back when I was racing full time, I used to tell the greenhorns that practice makes permanent. Lazy practice makes.... guess what.
Solo practice can be difficult and should really be for creating muscle memory. Don' forget the physical aspect of all this, yoga is exceptionally great for getting in shape for long strings of fire in the sling.
Solo practice can be difficult and should really be for creating muscle memory. Don' forget the physical aspect of all this, yoga is exceptionally great for getting in shape for long strings of fire in the sling.
Fullbore/Palma (with 155s... haven't yet asked Erud for an honourary non-USA-resident sticker...? ;-)
some comments w.r.t. the right degree of fussing about equipment, in the different disciplines...
With Service Rifle and also 300,500,600 Fullbore, one can get match-winning scores with any competently-thrown-together ammo. Good bullets seated to magazine length with any brass any primers and any halfways sensible thrown powder charges ought to be capable of cleaning the target and having a decent X-count. The 2-3 MOA 10-ring is relatively "huge" in comparison to the grouping ability of this sort of ammo, so the vast majority of the end result is due to shooter technique (sight picture and shot delivery, centering groups, mental management and control, and even a bit of wind reading). It does no harm to make better ammo than this, but it doesn't help either and isn't time well spent.
With 800-1000y iron sights shooting on a 2-MOA 10-ring target, usually a higher degree of care is needed in load tuning, so as to keep the vertical dispersion tight enough so that the ammo isn't dropping the occasional point on you. I used to shoot ammo with a carefully-thrown charges at all distances, but several years ago realized that this ammo was costing me one or two points in a string at 900m/1000y. I now shoot thrown-charge ammo at 300,500,600 and weighed-charge ammo for long range. It is worth the effort for long range, it is a waste of effort for short and mid range.
With F-Class shooting, it is a whole different world. Firstly the 10-ring is 1MOA, and secondly the shooting is done in such a manner that basically everyone on the line is firing perfectly aimed shots almost all the time. If you don't have a load that will reliably group *all* of your shots *well* within the 10-ring, you are at a distinct disadvantage to the other good shooters on the line who are so equipped. You are going to bleed away points and fall behind, even if you are just as good a trigger puller, group centerer and wind reader as the other top guys on the line.
In F-Class it *does* make sense and it will pay for itself in actual points saved in matches, to try to get a short/mid range load that will shooter under 1/2 MOA and a long range load that will shoot under 3/4 MOA.
some comments w.r.t. the right degree of fussing about equipment, in the different disciplines...
With Service Rifle and also 300,500,600 Fullbore, one can get match-winning scores with any competently-thrown-together ammo. Good bullets seated to magazine length with any brass any primers and any halfways sensible thrown powder charges ought to be capable of cleaning the target and having a decent X-count. The 2-3 MOA 10-ring is relatively "huge" in comparison to the grouping ability of this sort of ammo, so the vast majority of the end result is due to shooter technique (sight picture and shot delivery, centering groups, mental management and control, and even a bit of wind reading). It does no harm to make better ammo than this, but it doesn't help either and isn't time well spent.
With 800-1000y iron sights shooting on a 2-MOA 10-ring target, usually a higher degree of care is needed in load tuning, so as to keep the vertical dispersion tight enough so that the ammo isn't dropping the occasional point on you. I used to shoot ammo with a carefully-thrown charges at all distances, but several years ago realized that this ammo was costing me one or two points in a string at 900m/1000y. I now shoot thrown-charge ammo at 300,500,600 and weighed-charge ammo for long range. It is worth the effort for long range, it is a waste of effort for short and mid range.
With F-Class shooting, it is a whole different world. Firstly the 10-ring is 1MOA, and secondly the shooting is done in such a manner that basically everyone on the line is firing perfectly aimed shots almost all the time. If you don't have a load that will reliably group *all* of your shots *well* within the 10-ring, you are at a distinct disadvantage to the other good shooters on the line who are so equipped. You are going to bleed away points and fall behind, even if you are just as good a trigger puller, group centerer and wind reader as the other top guys on the line.
In F-Class it *does* make sense and it will pay for itself in actual points saved in matches, to try to get a short/mid range load that will shooter under 1/2 MOA and a long range load that will shoot under 3/4 MOA.
I pretty much agree with you on this Dan, though I haven't yet quite been able to leave my Autotrickler sitting idle when I load ammunition for 600 yard matches just yet.
Just yesterday I had an opportunity to range-test three different brands of new, small-primered 308WIN brass cases at 600 yards. I've posted what I came away with here, also making reference to your post reflecting on whether brass makes much of a difference at 600 or under. If these new brands are as consistent batch to batch and as long-lived as Lapua's Palma brass has proven to be, the folks behind them are doing a good job for us!
Just yesterday I had an opportunity to range-test three different brands of new, small-primered 308WIN brass cases at 600 yards. I've posted what I came away with here, also making reference to your post reflecting on whether brass makes much of a difference at 600 or under. If these new brands are as consistent batch to batch and as long-lived as Lapua's Palma brass has proven to be, the folks behind them are doing a good job for us!
Hey Daniel,
The Palma Alliance is an organization without borders. We’d love to have you, and you wouldn’t even be the first Canuck to join!
Erik
Hengehold
Silver $$ Contributor
I have read just about every book that I have found related to position shooting and "Ways of the Rifle" is by far the most detailed and technical resource I have found.
A close second is "Competitive Shooting" by A. A. Yur'yev
ISBN: 0-935998-53-5
If you read those two two books about position shooting, you WILL NOT have any unanswered questions related to building a stable/repeatable position.
-Trevor
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I’m glad someone brought this up, as it’s something I’ve noticed for a long time. I’d like to see more posts about technique in this forum.
Dave Rabin
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Mid-Range Prone
Long Range prone
Small Bore prone
You can probably get to Expert by yourself. Reading all of the books about technique and position will get you there.
Now how do you get to that next level, Master or High Master. You really need to be shooting with folks that are better than you. You need a coach who can see where you need to change. It can be a physical thing or as Kevin said, a mental management thing. Posing questions to someone who can give you the answer in terms you understand is a key factor. How do you analyze what you don't fully understand?
Any of those accomplished shooters that Kevin mentioned would easily answer any question you asked, the issue is would you understand the answer? Maybe not. They will speak a language you do not yet know. That is where a good coach/teacher comes into play. Translating what you need to know into term you understand.
If you are practicing on an electronic trainer or using a SB rifle at 50 yds, you should be able to perfect your position and shot execution. Once you can shoot perfect shots, then the next step is learning to read the wind and know how to correct for it. Finally, there is match strategy.
I would venture to say that the sling shooters have already figured out how to load for their rifles and get max performance out of the hardware. They have been doing that for many years and have their recipes. If a bbl doesn't shoot one of their known good loads, it is a bbl issue and not a loading issue. Don't waste ammo trying to make a so-so bbl shoot. I'll admit that I have not had a bbl from a known maker that would not shoot known good recipes.
The same applies to cleaning. High Masters have a cleaning routine down that puts the first shot out of the bbl. in the X ring when they do their part. No need to shoot shots that do not give them accurate feedback on wind conditions or wear a bbl out with fouling shots.
Bob
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We're supposed to clean our barrels? Guess I need to quit dragging my knuckles long enough to try that . . . .
Bolt Carrier group, that's a different animal all together. . . . .
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At one time, I held over half dozen small-bore classifications, and three high power classifications.
I probably have two classifications that have recently expired:
High-power mid-range prone
Small-bore metric prone
My active classifications are:
High-power long range prone
Small-bore conventional prone
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I would argue that you can probably get Master, if not High Master on your own. It comes down to desire, and time. If one doesn't get the trigger time, one won't progress. I got a XTC Master card, with a bolt action .308 at Camp Perry in the 1980's. Life and time got in the way, and my positions deteriorated, so XTC went by the wayside. Same for small-bore position.
Short of a junior program in the late 1960's, I've never had the benefit of coaching. I am sure I would benefit from coaching now, but I also feel I have to get myself in better physical shape, and mentally set some goals and objectives. Something mentioned/implied in the quoted post.
XTC
Maybe some MidRange in 2018.
This was my first year shooting and I should be classified as Expert when the NRA sends my card. I had fun with the service rifle in 2017, but I've always loved running a bolt gun....so I bought a used Eliseo chassis and just got it back from the smith a few weeks ago.
Maybe some MidRange in 2018.
This was my first year shooting and I should be classified as Expert when the NRA sends my card. I had fun with the service rifle in 2017, but I've always loved running a bolt gun....so I bought a used Eliseo chassis and just got it back from the smith a few weeks ago.
Corning,
You can get to M and HM on ur own but how long will it take? You will plateau somewhere in that Expert/Master area and hopefully not get discouraged.
A good coach/ teacher will have u breeze thru those classifications. Just look at some of the juniors who go distinguished in their first or second year. Some one is working with them and showing them the right things to do.
U can read books n articles and spend a year pursuing a technique or position that does not work for u. A good coach or better shooter would help u past that hurdle quickly.
The school of hard knocks n experience isn't bad, it just takes time n someone who knows enough to learn from their mistakes. Not always easy to do!
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