sleeving revolver cylinder chamber?

[1951]

Howdy.
I have a revolver cylinder that has been rather abused in the last 150 years of it's existence. The front sections of the cylinder chambers are nice and smooth but the rear section is horrid. Almost looks like someone has taken a twist drill in a hand held drill and reamed the rear section out cone shaped, with more material removed from one side of the bore than the other.

I'd like to bore and ream the chambers to 0.480" diameter clean through, then sleeve the bore and ream it out to .454" to accept my .452" diameter cartridges. Trouble is by reaming the chambers out to .480" I'll reduce the amount of metal between the cylinders from .050" to .028" before I install sleeves. Is 28 thou. too thin to hold a sleeve in the bore? I was thinking if I do this I will ream out and sleeve one chamber before moving to the next just to make the chamber wall stiffer before going to the next.

Any thoughts? Am I thinking ridiculously here?

 

[Ggmac]

personal opinion = the unknowns, such as type of metal in cyl , hardening and how deep the bolt stop or ratchet notch is will determine the out come . If you used a interference fit with a good metal ( 41v50 or better ) SHOULD work . Maybe freeze the sleeve and warm the cylinder. If a replacement cyl isn’t available, you dont have much of a choice .
Of course use mild loads and test with it in a jig with a string . Test ALL cylinders with the string . What make and model is it ?

 

[1951]

Thank you.
Its a Remington 1858 transitional Army that has had an Army Armoury conversion from cap and ball to metallic cartridge, delivered 1863. The bottom of the bolt stop will be 21 thou above the .480 overbore for the sleeve.

 

[Walt Krafft]

I am pretty sure by modifying something that old you are destroying it more than improving it. Sometimes it is better to leave things be.

 

[jackieschmidt]

As to your question about the wall thickness between cylinders, if you make your sleeves out of a good alloy steel and keep the pressures at what the original cylinder was designed for, you probably will be ok.

might I suggest that you give the sleeves about a ,002 interference fit and freeze them in dry ice or liquid nitrogen to install them. If you do it right, you could machine them finished before you shrink them in.

By the way, what is the outside cylinder wall thickness? I have seen several cylinder failures from over pressure, and all blew out, not in toward to the sides.

 

[akajun]

This may sound silly but think about it
It may be easier to make a new cylinder than to sleeve and rebore
Simply make a cylinder blank with all the ratchet teeth and cylinder stops, get it functioning , then make a cylinder marking fixture that either goes through the barrel and center punch the location of each cylinder then bore and ream

 

[1951]

Walt, It's either repair it or get rid of it. A gun that I can't shoot is of no use to me. I'm not the type to have old things that don't work hanging around just because they are old. I have no other choices, fix or toss. But thanks for the opinion.

Jackie, That was going to be one of my other questions, how much interference?

The cylinder is thinner between the bores than between the outside surface and the bores. Even the timing notch. I was going to use cold rolled steel, I think that would be stronger than the 160 year old stuff, but I'm not a gunsmith or a metallurgist, that was another question, what metal to use? I've shot this gun very little using a 210 grain heeled bullet and 4 grains of Titegroup in a 44 Colt case. The closest I could make up resembling a 44 Remington metallic case. All the recoil of a cap gun, made me wonder if the bullet even got out, I checked the barrel between shots. I'm sure the pressure is lower than the original black powder load. I can only shoot six then get a hammer and punch to knock the cases out of the chambers. The hammer is driving the rims right into the back of the screwed up cylinders when the gun fires. There is no room to use a case with a larger rim.

I have a pic of the chamber castings and one of the back of the cylinder. One can see the castings are pretty ugly, there is quite a bit of taper from the back of the chamber to the middle. In the pic of the cylinder one can see the chamber has been counter sunk, if it had been counter bored instead the rim of the case would have a surface to sit on but because it's counter sunk the case head gets jammed into the chamber. I was considering trimming a 44 mag case to the length of the 44 Colt then turning the rim down to a slightly larger diameter than the 44 colt to see if the case would stay out of the chamber, but after trying a 30-30 rim, a 30 WCF and a 32 special rim I've determined that any rim larger than the 44 colt rim would interfere with the ratchet.

Thanks again,
Al

 

[1951]

Akajun, I looked at the idea of a new cylinder but I have no clue as to how I would machine the ratchet, I'm not a machinist either. I was going to drill out the cylinder bores with my dirill press then us an adjustable hand reamer to get the final size. The sleeves I was going to get drilled out on a lathe then drill them close to finish size on my drill press after install and use an adjustable hand reamer to final size them.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Get rid of it, drill out the cylinder bores with a drill press?

Just sell it to some that will make it a wall hanger and love it for what it is.

 

[potatojudge]

Ask over on the single actions forum. They'll 100% have your answer, from sleeving the original cylinder to fitting a replacement.

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[akajun]

If you have a mill that ratchet looks pretty simple
Simply use the old cylinder as a template to set up the Angle on the dividing head
Then figure out a way to use the ratchet to index the cylinder notches
Or do that backwards the important thing is getting a cylinder blank made and working
The cylinders is the easy part
Make a few out of scrap mild steel but the real one I’d make from 4130 / 4140 pre hard

 

[1951]

Yes, drill out the cylinders with a drill press. Once the drill head is centered over the bore and the job is fastened to the table it's no different than using a lathe or mill. One has to feed it manually but ... I've made some pretty accurate finishes with an adjustable reamer. I needed a Pontiac 428 block rear seal groove machined true. I went to 11 machine shops asking to get it done, none of the machine shops could do it even with the hundreds of thousands of dollars of machinery. I used a drill press and a vise to make a hand operated tool to do the job myself. Took me a few weeks to make it but I did the job, cutting 12 thou off the block and 2 thou off the cap. The cylinder looks pretty easy compared to that. I drilled out a rifle barrel to sleeve it with a hand drill.

Taylor, and a few others make conversion cylinders for the replica 1858s. The companies that make them call them Remington 1858s , but maybe they should call them Pietta 1858s or Uberti 1858 instead. Might clear some confusion.

I have no mill.

I suppose someone may want a non functioning 1858 to hang on the wall. Perhaps I'll explore that, I can't imagine anyone offering much money for it.

 

[Ggmac]

Yes, drill out the cylinders with a drill press. Once the drill head is centered over the bore and the job is fastened to the table it's no different than using a lathe or mill. One has to feed it manually but ... I've made some pretty accurate finishes with an adjustable reamer. I needed a Pontiac 428 block rear seal groove machined true. I went to 11 machine shops asking to get it done, none of the machine shops could do it even with the hundreds of thousands of dollars of machinery. I used a drill press and a vise to make a hand operated tool to do the job myself. Took me a few weeks to make it but I did the job, cutting 12 thou off the block and 2 thou off the cap. The cylinder looks pretty easy compared to that. I drilled out a rifle barrel to sleeve it with a hand drill.

Taylor, and a few others make conversion cylinders for the replica 1858s. The companies that make them call them Remington 1858s , but maybe they should call them Pietta 1858s or Uberti 1858 instead. Might clear some confusion.

I have no mill.

I suppose someone may want a non functioning 1858 to hang on the wall. Perhaps I'll explore that, I can't imagine anyone offering much money for it.

I would look at the conversion units . But jackieschmidt and I have the same thoughts and approach to it . Its no worse off after an unsuccessful attempt than now ( unless it blows up and hurts someone) . Of course I would leave a note or written warning to the next caretaker of it .

 

[Ggmac]

Yes, drill out the cylinders with a drill press. Once the drill head is centered over the bore and the job is fastened to the table it's no different than using a lathe or mill. One has to feed it manually but ... I've made some pretty accurate finishes with an adjustable reamer. I needed a Pontiac 428 block rear seal groove machined true. I went to 11 machine shops asking to get it done, none of the machine shops could do it even with the hundreds of thousands of dollars of machinery. I used a drill press and a vise to make a hand operated tool to do the job myself. Took me a few weeks to make it but I did the job, cutting 12 thou off the block and 2 thou off the cap. The cylinder looks pretty easy compared to that. I drilled out a rifle barrel to sleeve it with a hand drill.

Taylor, and a few others make conversion cylinders for the replica 1858s. The companies that make them call them Remington 1858s , but maybe they should call them Pietta 1858s or Uberti 1858 instead. Might clear some confusion.

I have no mill.

I suppose someone may want a non functioning 1858 to hang on the wall. Perhaps I'll explore that, I can't imagine anyone offering much money for it.

Its still pretty valuable !

 

[JSH]

As mentioned the rig has value for what it is. I would sell and seek out another for a project myself.

I have seen cylinders bushed before, but it they went to a smaller cartridge than original. 44 marked Black Hawk, cylinders were cleaned up just enough to have the inserts fit into them, it was line bored into a 327 magnum. I hesitated at buying it, distant friend ended up with it and it shoots equal to any of his FA’s.
I have since seen one other example, a modern Colt SA 45 redone to 357 magnum.

 

[jackieschmidt]

1951, with all due respect, to attempt a project like this, you need machinist skills and a lathe. I say you do not need a mill because there is a way to bore your cylinders by using a rather simple fixture in a lathe.

If you follow the course you described, I do not think things will come out well.

By the way, a good source for alloy steel for small parts is good grade 8 bolts from any auto parts or hardware store.

 

[1951]

Thanks for the thoughts and advice. I have access to a lathe that I could use but no formal trining but I will put this on hold for a spell while I ponder said advice.

Thank you I respect everyone's opinions.

 

[243winxb]

Do a Google for "Remington 1858 army conversion cylinder" Maybe a conversion cylinder can be made to fit?? I have No experience doing it.

 

[1951]

Well it took long enough but I now have a 45 ACP five-shooter. The sixth cylinder was too far gone but five shooter is better than no shooter.
Went with 45 ACP as the cartridge head spaces off the mouth of the case, the rear of the chambers where too screwed up to use any rimmed cartridge. Bore the cylinder chambers from the front 0.4530"-0.4535" then ream the chamber down to the proper depth for headspaceing.

Not what I'd first intended but at least I can shoot the old thing now. If I ever find a metallic cartridge cylinder for it I can always replace this one for the new. I have a snap cap in the off chamber so I lower the hammer on that cylinder until I'm ready to fire the others.

230 grain hard lubed cast lead bullets and 3.5 grains of titegroup seem to be a mild enough load to not blow the gun up.

 

[jackieschmidt]

That came out pretty good.