sizing too much after annealing

[47WillysGuy]

Added: FTR I would love to just fireform them. But, the cases that were bad, would not chamber.

why not use a standard full sizing die, lube the case, and resize the case back to dimension that will allow the case to be chambered? Inquiring minds!

Be taking like .308 brass and converting to 6.5 CM brass.

 

[Webster]

You can put it in the inside of the neck, the flame won’t touch it.

Why even use it? 750F doesn't anneal. Sounds like a real problem removing burnt TempLac from the necks of a lot of cases.

 

[rijndael]

750F doesn't anneal. Sounds like a real problem removing burnt TempLac from the necks of a lot of cases.

OK. Then use a different temp. Putting it on the inside of the neck still prevents the other one from burning.

It's easy to remove from the inside of the neck.

 

[sandwarrior]

why not use a standard full sizing die, lube the case, and resize the case back to dimension that will allow the case to be chambered? Inquiring minds!

Be taking like .308 brass and converting to 6.5 CM brass.

Did that, did not work so ended up using first a 30-06 die, which saved a bunch. then used a Mauser die and that saved a bunch more. Down to six still that won't work. Yesterday, I fired all the 'tough' ones and they all fired fine.

 

[Webster]

I once ruined some cases after annealing, i sized them using a Forster die with the expander ball intact. The case necks collapsed like an accordion.

Don't understand the necks collapsing like an accordion. The ball pulls on the neck it doesn't push. Annealing done properly shouldn't make the neck and shoulder area extremly soft. I never damaged a case annealing. Is there a rule of thumb for the ball diameter compared to the neck diameter before pulling the ball thru??? I always remove the ball expander from the die. Recent years I deprime with a die with the pin down so far it deprimes with no sizing, then size with a Redding FL type S bushing die without a ball. I never used an expander mandrel. Both my 6BR and 6BRX rifles shoot around .350" groups with mass produced bullets. More than good enough for GH hunting.

 

[sandwarrior]

I assumed I’d over cooked them using Map gas rather than propane .
I’m also not aware of any rules for expander systems but moving forward I’ve ditched Forster dues in favor of Harrell’s or Wilson that do not incorporate the ball system rather a decapping rod only.
I’m happier now and haven’t annealed since.

What is yoer Harrells die? I know the Wilson's won't full length resize. That is why I use the Forster for full length sizing. I'm one of those people who neck sizes and every 5-7 loadings, full length size. Keep in mind, I didn't use the FL dies in this situation.

 

[Dave M.]

So, went to a shoot yesterday and found I had 24 of 91 cases that I had just annealed, that I had sized too much. The necks were shorter and the shoulders seemed to be at more of a 50 deg. angle than a 40 deg. angle. I full length sized them and that saved one. I then took and ran them through a .22-250 die and that savd seven more.

Any ideas how to bring the rest of this brass back to life?

I’ve seen something quite similar happen when sizing brass with a severe lack of lube. The neck catches and the shoulder angle changes and presses the neck in as well. Fireform them making sure the bullets are way into the lands to allow full expansion upon combustion.
Dave

 

[Dave M.]

Don't understand the necks collapsing like an accordion. The ball pulls on the neck it doesn't push. Annealing done properly shouldn't make the neck and shoulder area extremly soft. I never damaged a case annealing. Is there a rule of thumb for the ball diameter compared to the neck diameter before pulling the ball thru??? I always remove the ball expander from the die. Recent years I deprime with a die with the pin down so far it deprimes with no sizing, then size with a Redding FL type S bushing die without a ball. I never used an expander mandrel. Both my 6BR and 6BRX rifles shoot around .350" groups with mass produced bullets. More than good enough for GH hunting.

Always remove the expander ball from my full length resizing dies.

 

[Dave M.]

Thats how i did mine and there is a couple seconds difference between that time to hit 750 vs the slight glow the last time i did it. So far no issues for me either way but its only my first time annealing this brass. I did one batch of each way

They make 850 deg stuff i may try that too

Just take the bottles of templaq you have and throw them in the trash. The best way to anneal, without using digital pyrometers capable of measuring 500+ data points per second, is to go by color only. Make the room pitch black and anneal a piece until you see a faint, even, dark red glow. Make sure the color is even around the brass, if not adjust your brass turning method or reposition your coil in an induction setup. This will give you nice evenly annealed brass and will assure that you are miles away from over annealing them. When in doubt, underannealing is always better than over annealing. Honestly, people make a big deal about over annealing brass but it’s way harder to do than you would think. I’ve done this on purpose to test it and severely over annealed brass (I mean BRIGHT CHERRY RED on the entire neck, shoulder and 1/8” under the should/neck junction) only made a very tiny difference in group size at 600 yards, and resulted in no difference in overall score.
Dave

 

[Orr89rocz]

Just take the bottles of templaq you have and throw them in the trash. The best way to anneal, without using digital pyrometers capable of measuring 500+ data points per second, is to go by color only. Make the room pitch black and anneal a piece until you see a faint, even, dark red glow. Make sure the color is even around the brass, if not adjust your brass turning method or reposition your coil in an induction setup. This will give you nice evenly annealed brass and will assure that you are miles away from over annealing them. When in doubt, underannealing is always better than over annealing. Honestly, people make a big deal about over annealing brass but it’s way harder to do than you would think. I’ve done this on purpose to test it and severely over annealed brass (I mean BRIGHT CHERRY RED on the entire neck, shoulder and 1/8” under the should/neck junction) only made a very tiny difference in group size at 600 yards, and resulted in no difference in overall score.
Dave

Problem is everyone sees glow differently lol my eyes may not be as good as others. But sounds like it might not matter anyway. Last time i did the glow the anneal color change moved a good deal down the case body. Much more than the original line from new. Either way, both sets of annealed brass, the glow and templaq, seem to shoot the same from what i can tell. Maybe i will stick with the slight glow again since its easier or split the difference in time settings on my machine between the two

 

[Webster]

I assumed I’d over cooked them using Map gas rather than propane .
I’m also not aware of any rules for expander systems but moving forward I’ve ditched Forster dues in favor of Harrell’s or Wilson that do not incorporate the ball system rather a decapping rod only.
I’m happier now and haven’t annealed since.

I would never use MAP gas. Not that it cannot be used., annealing is time at temp. I prefer heating a little slower so it may be easier to control? With a single propane torch it takes about 8-9 seconds to get the neck an even red. Been reloading the same 200 Lapua cases since I bought them in 2009. About 20 reloads on each case,

 

[Webster]

Problem is everyone sees glow differently lol my eyes may not be as good as others. But sounds like it might not matter anyway. Last time i did the glow the anneal color change moved a good deal down the case body. Much more than the original line from new. Either way, both sets of annealed brass, the glow and templaq, seem to shoot the same from what i can tell. Maybe i will stick with the slight glow again since its easier or split the difference in time settings on my machine between the two

Most of us cannot shoot consistantly small enough to see the difference. I do it for case life. Both my rifles shoot around .350". It's good enough. I don't need any better. Both rifles are a nightmare for GH.

 

[Dave M.]

Problem is everyone sees glow differently lol my eyes may not be as good as others. But sounds like it might not matter anyway. Last time i did the glow the anneal color change moved a good deal down the case body. Much more than the original line from new. Either way, both sets of annealed brass, the glow and templaq, seem to shoot the same from what i can tell. Maybe i will stick with the slight glow again since its easier or split the difference in time settings on my machine between the two

Send me 50 pieces of your brass. I will induction anneal them correctly and then you can shoot them against your annealing process to see if it makes any difference to your style or discipline. I will anneal them for free, you just cover the shipping both ways (can’t be more than $7-8 each way max). People need to put their time, attention, money towards improving their reloading process with the items that show the largest result on the target. In my opinion, that would be accurate seating depth, proper ignition, accurate charge weights, and consistent rifle handling manners.

Dave

 

[DLT]

I don't know much about annealing. I'm no scientist. I do anneal my brass every time I fire it.

I have a Bench Source that I purchased because it was said to be the best when I was ready to purchase.

I use the swirl-tip torch heads. Its faster than the pencil tips. About two to four seconds in the flame depending on what the brass is. I adjust time to where it glows a dull orange color with the lights off. I get consistent shoulder bump, I get lots of firings on my brass, and I get consistent ES/SD. I don't have a means to measure seating force, but on my press, an Area 419 Zero, I can hardly feel the seating of a bullet.

My loads are more capable than I am at reading the wind. I thought long and hard about dropping the money for an AMP but I don't think it will enhance my experience at this point.

What’s a swirl tip torch head ? Maybe a link of what you’re using. I’m all for getting it done faster

 

[DLT]

I would never use MAP gas. Not that it cannot be used., annealing is time at temp. I prefer heating a little slower so it may be easier to control? With a single propane torch it takes about 8-9 seconds to get the neck an even red. Been reloading the same 200 Lapua cases since I bought them in 2009. About 20 reloads on each case,

I use map. To my eyes, and how my mind works, dark red is a certain temp or cherry red is a certain temp it shouldn’t matter what fuel got it there it just got there faster. I shoot a pretty warm load in 6 creed using adg brass that lasts about 10 firings before the case starts separating at the web

 

[Rocketvapor]

Takes two people to anneal with my Annealeze.
I grab about 10 lose pocket cases, set up, have the wife turn out the lights, watch for dull red, "Lights ON Dear" then GO.

 

[drop_point]

What’s a swirl tip torch head ? Maybe a link of what you’re using. I’m all for getting it done faster

Amazon.com

 

[Paddyd]

Sorry guys, a big key I left out here is they were initally 'bump neck-sized'. It's a neck die that sizes all the way down the neck and is set to 'bump' the top of the shoulder down .002" It also has a bit of a rounded corner at the shoulder. So it takes the neck/shoulder junction down and, is supposed to, keep the shoulder/body from blowing out. It was this die's lock ring that I found loose and did not reset correctly. The brass was then sized down too much. All of the rim/lower cases remained hardened.

Added: FTR I would love to just fireform them. But, the cases that were bad, would not chamber.

Maybe try a full length die that squeezes the body in which would in turn push that shoulder back out?? I do know my cases grow longer if FL sized without trying to bump the shoulder.

 

[sandwarrior]

Maybe try a full length die that squeezes the body in which would in turn push that shoulder back out?? I do know my cases grow longer if FL sized without trying to bump the shoulder.

It's posted above that I tried that.Pretty much got the problem solved. Next time I size after annealing, I'll make sure not to make the same mistake.

 

[Bill K]

What do you mean by Oversizing ? Your die will only size so much and the brass fitting it and your chamber should match, if they are to specs.